The Ryan Report was a Gross Exaggeration. Politics IE was Right and the Irish Times was Wrong.

TruthInTheNews

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Here is a fine example why social media is so important in an age when an agenda driven mainstream media subjects itself to self censorship.

The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (CICA) has finally admitted that the number of children it reported being admitted into the industrial schools system was grossly exaggerated.

“The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse said on Monday that the 170,000 estimate for the number of children who were admitted to industrial schools between 1936 and 1970 in its 2009 report was a “seriously erroneous statistic”.” Eoin O’Sullivan, a social policy professor at Trinity College Dublin who first questioned the Ryan report’s figure in an academic paper published in 2014, said that the commission had “simply added up the wrong column of figures”. “The commission added up the existing number of children in the schools at the end of each year to reach the 170,000 figure, instead of adding up the number of new children who entered the industrial schools each year, he said”


The report in question was released by the CICA in May 2009 and colloquially referred to as the “Ryan Report”. The corresponding thread on Politics IE is littered with references to the error in the Ryan Report which nobody in the mainstream media seem to spot, or more likely, decided to overlook.

The figure of 170,000 quoted in your post is taken from Ryan Report Vol 1, Chapter 3. This figure is a glaring mistake, one of many in the report and it's subsidiary documents.

The Ryan Report states in the paragraphs immediately following that the industrial school population topped out at 6.800 in 1946 but was down to 4,300 in 1960 and declined steadily thereafter. So if we said that the average number of children in industrial schools between 1936 and 1970 was 5000(the number actually in the schools was less than 4300 after 1960) then the number of children that passed through the industrial school system would be 180,000 but ONLY IF all of the children in the schools were discharged each year and a new batch entered. This assumes that each child spent a maximum of one year in the schools. But of course this is not true because the Ryan Report itself tells us that the average stay was seven years.

“The Department of Education has an index card for every child that was admitted to an industrial school since 1922 when the Free State took over the industrial schools. There are about 42,000 files in total of which 35,000 are relate to the period 1936 to 1970”.


Why did Irish Times journalists like Fintan O’Toole not discover this error when it was plainly obvious to the pundits on Politics IE that there was a problem with the statistic? Why does an academic claim he discovered the error in 2014 when it was reported on Politics IE within a matter of days of the report being published in 2009?

Fintan O’Toole loves to harp on about fake news on social media. Well what about the false facts put about by the Irish Times? The claim that 170,000 went through the industrial school system is a big fat lie. The real figure was 35,000 in the period covered by the Ryan Report.

The Irish Times have not bothered to correct the record as you can see from the links below. The lesson from this is don’t trust the Irish Times.




 


owedtojoy

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The 35,000 received great first-class treatment, and were never abused in any way?

Is that the claim?

Surely, it is the dismal quality of life in the institutions that is the issue with the Ryan Report? And the conspiracy of the State and Church to perpetuate it?

This is like the ongoing dispute about how many Irishmen died in World War I. It is an important side-issue, but not the key question.
 

Catahualpa

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The Ryan Report was and is a flawed document

- it relies in the uncorroborated testimony of individuals who looking for cash compensation for the time they spent in these Institutions

- and they way they were treated.

When History comes to be written it cannot take at face value this sort of thing.
 

TruthInTheNews

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The Ryan Report was and is a flawed document

- it relies in the uncorroborated testimony of individuals who looking for cash compensation for the time they spent in these Institutions

- and they way they were treated.

When History comes to be written it cannot take at face value this sort of thing.
Do you have any examples of claimants lying to the Redress Board or solicitors encouraging them to do so?
 

redmonite

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The 35,000 received great first-class treatment, and were never abused in any way?

Is that the claim?

Surely, it is the dismal quality of life in the institutions that is the issue with the Ryan Report? And the conspiracy of the State and Church to perpetuate it?

This is like the ongoing dispute about how many Irishmen died in World War I. It is an important side-issue, but not the key question.
If a simple fact, an obvious fact can be missed and not corrected for five years it does call into question the reports findings on the scale of the abuse which would be subjective. Of course abuse happened but the scale of it?
 

TruthInTheNews

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Here is an analysis by Pine, Leavy and Keane of the Ryan Report that totally misses the point and that point is corporal punishment and indeed severe corporal punishment was socially acceptable during the period the industrial schools were operational and indeed for some time afterwards. Corporal punishment was seen as the most effective method of disciplining and controlling children. The analysis alludes to the description in the Ryan Report of the climate of fear that existed in the industrial schools and the systematic use of corporate punishment.

"the report revealed the scale of the cruelty, violence, and exploitation; it described in great detail the “climate of fear” in the institutions and the “systemic” nature of abuse".

What Pine, Leavy and Keane, and indeed the Ryan Report itself, fail to point out is that most people agreed with the use of corporate punishment to discipline children and that corporate punishment was widely used in the home by parents themselves and in public and private schools with the approval of parents. The use of corporate punishment in Industrial Schools was legal at the time and most instances of corporate punishment would not have been actionable unless the child suffered permanent physical damage. Parents, teachers, and those in loco parentis had the right to beat children. Therefore, the climate of fear engendered by the corporal punishment regime in industrial schools was not exceptional because fear was the primary method used by society to control children.

 

Lumpy Talbot

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The Gardai published a report on their monitoring of claims made under the Ryan Commission report. Out of the 14,000 odd cases (NOT 170k, I should point out) they found precisely one case of an attempted false claim.

But this OP gives Cattlewiper and fellow seekers of truth the opportunity to claim that they poor church was blackguarded. Despite the conclusion of the Ryan Report that abuse was 'endemic' in catholic religious institutions. And the admission and apologies from those orders.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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I'd further point out that the Ryan Report had the name of the catholic church's home grown inadequates covered up with false names in the report- ostensibly to prevent prejudicing subsequent prosecutions.

None of which happened. So the Ryan Report was once again one of these occasional pretences that the Irish state goes through periodically in the hope they can finally put the whole issue to bed.

And of course ultimately only makes the extended cover-up more visible.
 

StarryPlough01

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And now the establishment [protecting its own] want to seal the records of Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, the Residential Institutions Redress Board, the Residential Institutions Redress Review Committee… for a minimum of 75 years.


Snippet:

Mr Fred Logue - Principal solicitor in FP Logue Solicitors:

"There should therefore be an express provision allowing the National Archives, its staff and contractors to access the records for the purpose of giving effect to data subject rights. Similarly there needs to be express provisions allowing the Data Protection Commission and the applicable courts access the records for the purpose of a data protection investigation, data protection litigation, discovery etc. and to order disclosure to third parties following such procedures.

~Snipped~

Mr Fred Logue - Principal solicitor in FP Logue Solicitors - very succinct submission to Committee:


"In short, despite the provisions in the Bill, any personal data in the archives must still be processed subject to the GDPR.Therefore,the provisions of the bill should be understood to be without prejudice to data subject rights, including the right of access. I would recommend that this position, which is the EU law position, should be expressly provided for in the act.

[…]

"First and importantly, the personal data in the transferred records must be accessible as of right to data subjects; this should be expressly recognised in the bill. Any access by the National Archives, its staff and service providers that is necessary to give effect to data subject access rights must also be possible and should be expressly provided for in the legislation.

"Second, the High Court under the Constitution has full and original jurisdiction and has the power to order access by way of discovery or otherwise. Equally the Data Protection Commission, High Court and Circuit Court have jurisdiction to grant access following a dataprotection investigation or data protection litigation. These powers should be expressly reflected in the bill.

"There should therefore be an express provision allowing the National Archives, its staff and contractors to access the records for the purpose of giving effect to data subject rights. Similarly there needs to be express provisions allowing the Data Protection Commission and the applicable courts access the records for the purpose of a data protection investigation, data protection litigation, discovery etc. and to order disclosure to third parties following such procedures.



Here's the JFM link to the submissions from speakers / presenters:



(All kudos to JFM)



STARRY:


Q: How has this cover up Bill reached the third stage (The Joint Committee on Education and Skills )?


A: The establishment threatened survivors with destruction of their records - not based on Irish Law. This point got thoroughly dissected by the legal speakers and they exposed the government's outrageous lie.


The government are flagrantly corrupt. This is a critical time in Ireland's political history. The coalition are planning to conceal child abuse records. They haven't compelled the religious congregations to hand over their records. The Act should be amended to enforce retrieval of these important historical records.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Couldn't agree more. There is no request that I know of from survivors to seal these records for 75 years so you have to ask yourself 'cui bono' on this- who benefits?

And of course the religious orders still retain records which should have been seized from them long ago, as well as the outstanding redress payments. Bit of a classic from yet another Irish Government trying to arrange yet another cover-up on behalf of the cult and its remaining delirious.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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In fact, it may be that the best thing to do is prepare a test case with a survivor demanding legally all information held in these records pertaining to their incarceration.

Because as far as I understand the law around Data Protection, GDPR and EU Data Directives the attempt to prevent this Freedom of Information request would turn out to be illegal under EU law and the sealing of such records may be defeated in a court challenge.

It would also be interesting to get this government in the witness box explaining why exactly the state is attempting to remove these records from view, especially to those people to whom the records refer.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Tune in tomorrow, when various Diocesan reports will be debunked by a believer.
 

McTell

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Here is a fine example why social media is so important in an age when an agenda driven mainstream media subjects itself to self censorship.
///

Why did Irish Times journalists like Fintan O’Toole not discover this error when it was plainly obvious to the pundits on Politics IE that there was a problem with the statistic? Why does an academic claim he discovered the error in 2014 when it was reported on Politics IE within a matter of days of the report being published in 2009?

Fintan O’Toole loves to harp on about fake news on social media. Well what about the false facts put about by the Irish Times? The claim that 170,000 went through the industrial school system is a big fat lie. The real figure was 35,000 in the period covered by the Ryan Report.
//

Hmm, no, all it proves is that judges laffoy and ryan ain't so good at counting numbers, so they're not.

Comes across as, "what a relief, the germans only killed 1,500,000 jews in the holocaust and not the 6m estimated".

The suffering of X number of the 35,000 means that more kids per 100 inmates were being abused (in whatever way) than before. In other words, the nightmare must have been more visible and more obvious.
 

redmonite

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In this country you are innocent until proven guilty, this caused a problem for a redress scheme as the accused maintained their innocence. The state could have done nothing and let abuse victims sue their alleged abusers for damages, but
I dont think anyone thought that was desirable. In the end what they came up with was a redress scheme where the religious orders would contribute a fixed sum and the state the rest , redress was awarded to people who alleged abuse with no adversarial cross examination. As this was the case the files had to be sealed as they would have accusations recorded against people with no right of reply.
 

McTell

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//
In the end what they came up with was a redress scheme where the religious orders would contribute a fixed sum and the state the rest , redress was awarded to people who alleged abuse with no adversarial cross examination. As this was the case the files had to be sealed as they would have accusations recorded against people with no right of reply.

It's very difficult as the abusers had such an amount of mind control long after the abuse had stopped. And the state wasn't rushing forward to help the abused.

It was bad that the abused could not be cross examined, but the quid pro quo was that the perps remained anonymous, with the blame spread onto the entire church.
 

TruthInTheNews

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Most of the posters here have completely missed the point. Corporal punishment was legal and the primary method used to enforce discipline in the schools. So it is correct to to say that a climate of fear pervaded the institutions but this was government policy and it was endorsed by the community.

Perhaps it is best to look at a modern day example of physical coercion used against youths.

In 2016 there was an expose on Australian television about rough treatment of detainees in a your detention centre which resulted in national and internal condemnation and an investigation by a Royal Commission.



However, no charges were laid against the prison officers involved because nothing they did was illegal. In fact the government minster responsible for the institution rejected the findings of the Royal Commission and defended the actions of the guards as did the prison officers union.

But the former corrections minister, John Elferink, told the NT News that the fact no charges had been laid showed that the prime minister, Malcolm Turnbull, had been misled when he announced the commission. “We have acted and always acted when in government with absolute probity, something Four Corners had explained to them at length, something they chose not to run with, and as a consequence they put out a story saying that we tortured children, that we acted with barbarism in our hearts and it made comparisons to Abu Ghraib,” he said. “All of those things are indictable offences; none of that was found to be true.”

The position of Mr. Elferink is similar to that of the RCC, we did nothing wrong or as in the case of the RCC, we did nothing wrong most of the time. In fact, the RCC did accept that a small number of children has been abused but not 15,000 which equated to every person still living who had attended an industrial school.

Corporal punishment was legal and the people who meted it out would have been beaten themselves when they were children.


Don Dale: no charges to be laid over royal commission findings
 

Lumpy Talbot

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The problem here is that there is an attempt at conflating the events and 'endemic abuse' (direct quote) in the religious institutions with 'corporal punishment'.

The Ryan Commission would never have sat if the issue was one of corporal punishment.
 

McTell

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We are tending to rewrite history by applying today's standards to the events of long ago.

But the sexual abuse of children is a power trip, of which beating them plays a part. It's a continuum, not a black and white thing.

The Cica report was not a surprise overall.
 


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