The Senate



Badnarik_Eire

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By two colleges: NUI, TCD

Does anyone actually know the reason why there are uni seats in the first place? It seems a bit elitist
 

geraghd

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They are universities not colleges.

Gusher: will you be NUI or U of D?


And restricting to Unis allows an independent voice to the house, and as I have said has proven to do so but also to introduce strong effective voices to the house.
This should not in my view be taken away or diluted as some have suggested, by extending it to all third level institutions. I wonder if we did that how many would be independent then?
 

geraghd

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It also endures that they are well educated and thus representing that 'vocation/functional' part of society..
 

Badnarik_Eire

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We could easily just make those six seats Dail seats and abolish the useless part of the senate (the other 54 seats).

There has been a provision to extend the uni franchise for years but nobody has acted on it, shows how little people care about this uselees house.
 

smiffy

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geraghd said:
This should not in my view be taken away or diluted as some have suggested, by extending it to all third level institutions. I wonder if we did that how many would be independent then?
I don't think this holds up. If the benefit of elitism (and, let's face it, there's no way this can be argued as anything else, unless for example, NUI students are in some way inherently superior to DCU students) is that it promotes independence, then why not make it more elitist and grant six seats to Trinity, and none to anywhere else?

Alternatively, if the argument is that graduates with degrees are somehow cleverer than the proles, then why not grant the franchise on the quality of your degree rather than on where you obtained it. You could get 5 votes if you've got a first, 3 for a 2:1, 1 for a 2:2 and anything under that means you're too stupid to have a say. Would that be more equitable?
 

Badnarik_Eire

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I already have it.
 

cleareyed

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I haven't seen any figures for the cost of this piece of indulgence. As reparation to the people of ireland for the mess seen in the Travers report and as punishment to the political parties (it's only a limbo for politicians) let's do away with teh senate and use the savings to prepare for the estimated 2 billion bill that awaits us.
 

geraghd

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Hey leave DCU out of this, I might actually end up there next year!

Well by granting all six to TCD you are diluting the seats: it means then that the chances of getting someone who is only tied to the university by simply getting a degree there higher. By only having three there is greater competition and therefore a better person serving on that seat.

Spreading the seats around, allows us to get the best from the other university too.

And its not in my vioew necessarily the fact that th graduates are better but that the candidates are better as in they are from the Universities which are supposedly the centres of learning and generally the best in their field.
 

smiffy

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geraghd said:
Well by granting all six to TCD you are diluting the seats: it means then that the chances of getting someone who is only tied to the university by simply getting a degree there higher. By only having three there is greater competition and therefore a better person serving on that seat.

(...)

And its not in my vioew necessarily the fact that th graduates are better but that the candidates are better as in they are from the Universities which are supposedly the centres of learning and generally the best in their field.
Yes, but my reading of your earlier post (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that you'd oppose extending the vote to graduates of non-NUI/UD colleges. Surely if you did this then competition would be even more enhanced, and better people would get the seats. Similarly, extending to other colleges wouldn't affect the quality of the candidates from the "centres of learning", as they'd still be eligible to run.

It looks like you're trying to argue it both ways.
 

Badnarik_Eire

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This is not an ad for keeping the senate we can have these six people without it.
 

Badnarik_Eire

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6 of them, if people really want to keep this elite group around so much.
 

Badnarik_Eire

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I think David Norris and Shane Ross would be great against government ministers.
 

Conor

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geraghd said:
And its not in my vioew necessarily the fact that th graduates are better but that the candidates are better as in they are from the Universities which are supposedly the centres of learning and generally the best in their field.
Interestingly, one doesn't need to be a graduate of NUI to be a candidate. You just need to be nominated by a 10 of them. Not sure about TCD.

eta: Same for Trinity, you don't have to be graduate.
 

geraghd

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Id oppose it extended to all third level instutions. But would not see a problem extending it to all Universities eg UL, DCU..
Well re competition: I meant competition within TCD in the case of your argument of extending it to 6 for TCD. Enhanced if there is only three for TCD as elegible candidates are still the same.
By extending it to more insitutions increases the number of candidates and the system is open to a vote along party lines rather than idividual candidates. Therefore less independents.
 

smiffy

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Badnarik_Eire said:
6 of them, if people really want to keep this elite group around so much.
So you advocate only UD/NUI (have you worked out why you were wrong earlier yet?) graduates getting double representation in the Dail? Or would you proposed that these graduates be barred from voting at constituency level?
 


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