The Settlements are the greatest impediment to Israeli-Palestinian Peace.

Nodin

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You have no proof of that assertion whatsoever. It was the Government of Israel which demanded and enforced the Gaza Strip as a Jew Free Zone.
What the people wanted was a settler free zone. I'd imagine much the same reaction if they were a bunch of hippys (8,000 violent hippys protected by 30,000 troops and taking 30% of the total and best land area in Gaza).
 


Interista

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What if the settlers do not leave or do not apply for Palestinian citizenship?
Then Israel's got a civil war on its hand, one which could well lead to the destruction of the state of Israel.

Not that I feel sorry for them. If you encourage half a million people - many of them armed and fanatic - to colonise stolen land, you're storing up major problems for yourself. However, this is what every single Israeli government has done since 1967. Ben Gurion was right: the 'settlement's are going to turn around and bite Israel in the ass some time in the not too distant future. Seems like a lose-lose situation for Israel in the long term.
 

Darth Brooks

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Facts are clear.

What the people wanted was a settler free zone. I'd imagine much the same reaction if they were a bunch of hippys (8,000 violent hippys protected by 30,000 troops and taking 30% of the total and best land area in Gaza).
Speculation and imagination is not much of a replacement for actual demonstrable facts. It was the Government of Israel which forcefully cleared the Gaza Strip of all it's Jewish colonists. It was the Government of Israel which gave the order that the Gaza Strip must be a "Jew Free Zone" (as put by Chaim)
And finally it was the government of Israel who enforced the order with troops and police.
I'm just putting Chaim straight on this. The government of Israel forbid any of them to remain in Gaza because they wanted Gaza to be a Jew Free Zone.
These are the facts.
 

zakalwe1

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It is becoming clear that Israel's new Prime Minister, Benjamin (Bibi) Netanhyahu, is currently on a collision course with the new President of the United States, Barak Obama, over the steps Israel is being required to take to show it's committement to bringing about a Peace agreement with the Palestinians in the format of the long preferred two-state solution.
The American administration has called for a complete settlement freeze in order that they can progress with negotiations with Palestinians and the Arab world at large for a comprehensive regional peace agreement.

But, for the slow learner, what exactly do they mean by this ?

Jewish neighborhoods in east Jerusalem are included in the US demand that Israel halt "settlement" construction, including for natural growth, State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told The Jerusalem Post during a press briefing on Monday.

"We're talking about all settlement activity, yes, in the area across the line," he said, referring to neighborhoods in Jerusalem over the Green Line, or pre-1967 armistice line, in response to a question on where America's calls to halt construction in the settlements would be applied.


US: Settlement freeze includes east J'lem | Israel | Jerusalem Post

The current right wing Israeli government maintians that this is unreasonable as the "Natural Growth" of the settlements need to be catered for. By natural growth they are referring to the housing units that would be required to house the offspring of the people currently living in settlements who wish to move out of their paternal homes yet continue to live at the same location. Or in the words of Israel's Bibi :

"We can't accept the idea that families will not bring children into the world, or that children will have to move away from their parents"

The problem with all this, is that in the eyes of most of the world, the settlements i.e. all construction East of the 1967 Armistice Line are illegal under International Law. For example, below is the statement by B'tselem the Israeli Human Rights group on the illegality of the Settlements under International Law
__________________________________________
International law

The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.

The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.

The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.

The illegality of the settlements under international humanitarian law does not affect the status of the settlers. The settlers constitute a civilian population by any standard, and include children, who are entitled to special protection. Although some of the settlers are part of the security forces, this fact has absolutely no bearing on the status of the other residents of the settlements


_____________________________________________

The primary requirement for the success of a Two-State Solution is a viable contiguous land mass upon which the proposed Palestinian State can come into existence. It cannot be denied that without this minimal requirement the Two-State Solution is not possible. Many argue that with the extent of settlement construction already present in the lands East of the 1967 Armistice Line, the Two-State Solution is already defunct and only a One-State or Bi-National State Solution is now practical. A look at the map of the current state of settlement construction across the West Bank , along with the intricate maze of checkpoints and access roads suggests a very poor prognosis indeed for the likelihood of the formation of a contiguous state from the fragmented areas of land left unaffected by the settlements and the illegal infrastructure which services them.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/fullMaps_Sa.nsf/luFullMap/968C7B002996C08E85257401004E9B70/$File/ocha_ACC_pse080106.pdf

This burning issue of the settlements is not the only problem facing the parties who truly wish to seek a just and lasting peace agreement for this decades long conflict but for Bibi and Barak it seems to be the issue over which they are both destined to lock horns and show to each of their constituencies the strength of their resolve.
For Barack Obama nothing less than US international prestige is at stake here as he hopes to prove that the US is the only broker capable of bringing the parties together under fair circumstances.
For Bibi it is his position as Prime Minister that is on the line as he dares not show weakness in the face of this rising US pressure.
For the settlers it is a day of reckoning that has been long in the making and for the Palestinians it is their last hope of forming an Independent Palestinian State.
So there can be no doubt that the stakes are high and that this question of the Settlements must be dealt with comprehensively in order that the last chance for peace is not missed.

Znet: Israel’s Settlement Blocs Carve Up the West Bank | International Solidarity Movement Palestine

As Palestinians, we have expressed our willingness to live together on this land with the Jewish people, and to live in one democratic state with Jewish Israelis as equal citizens. However, most Jewish Israelis and their politicians have clearly stated that they must live in a Jewish state, not in a state for all of its citizens. For this reason, we agreed to live in two states- Palestine side by side with Israel.
In 1974 turkish troops invaded northern cyprus and since then turkish settlers have been planted in the area.

these things happen. and UN non-binding rulings are ignored by all sides.

you wouldn't be advocating treating israel differently to other nations would you?
 

Interista

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you wouldn't be advocating treating israel differently to other nations would you?
You wouldn't be playing the same old broken record over and over would you?
 

zakalwe1

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You wouldn't be playing the same old broken record over and over would you?
you mean like the OP?

how many feckin middle east threads do we need???? i get it, you don't like israel/treatment of palestinians/US imperialist capitalist CIA pigs (delete as appropriate).
 

yanshuf

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you wouldn't be advocating treating israel differently to other nations would you?
Yes they would.

Just like everything else in this forum has one criterion for the world and another for Israel, they would expect Israel to do what others don't.

Have you ever heard a call to disolve Gibraltar?

This is a joke! Jews have more rights to settle in Judea Samaria and Gaza than the Spanish have to Ceuta and Melilla, the Russians to Sibiria and Americans, Canadians and Australians have to their territory.

What we see here is a sham concern to the "peace" process.
 

Interista

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how many feckin middle east threads do we need????
I'll say the same to you as people say to the Mary Whitehouse brigade: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Nobody is forcing you to read these thread and to offer your apologia for Israel.

its plain to everyone, except a select few, that this "kidnapping" was a stunt to generate hysterical publicity.
If it does draw attention to the plight of Gazans, that's a good thing. I know people like you would much prefer if Israel could commit crimes against humanity without publicity, but that's just too bad.
 

Interista

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BTW this thread isn't even about the kidnapping. Couldn't be that you're posting on both threads, while lamenting the fact that poor lil Israel gets criticized too often, could it?
 

SPDSW

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In 1974 turkish troops invaded northern cyprus and since then turkish settlers have been planted in the area.

these things happen. and UN non-binding rulings are ignored by all sides.

you wouldn't be advocating treating israel differently to other nations would you?
Well I for one personally am now happy at all at the division of Cyprus. I hope that one day the Island will be unified, but sadly as it stands, this would be under Capitalism, which would not benefit the people in any real way, division or unification.

As for the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, they are illegal -end of.

message from keyword search
 

SPDSW

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Yes they would.

Just like everything else in this forum has one criterion for the world and another for Israel, they would expect Israel to do what others don't.

Have you ever heard a call to disolve Gibraltar?

This is a joke! Jews have more rights to settle in Judea Samaria and Gaza than the Spanish have to Ceuta and Melilla, the Russians to Sibiria and Americans, Canadians and Australians have to their territory.

What we see here is a sham concern to the "peace" process.
Yes I have heard of calls for Gibraltar to be placed back into the hands of Spain.

On that issue; Can a Spanish person freely move from Spain into Gibraltar? Yes.
Is there free movement of goods from Gibraltar into Spain and vice versa? Yes

Can Spaniards and Gibraltan's travel on ANY roads they please between both areas? Yes.

Contrast that with Gaza/Isreal...


"Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon explains Israel's need for a clear Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Deputy_Foreign_Minister/Speeches/Dep_FM_Ayalon_recognizing_Israel_Jewish_state_30-Jun-2009.htm

It is one thing trying to demand Hamas recognise the Israeli state full stop, but Israel is NOT a Jewish state, with a huge number of the people living within it's boundaries a religion other than Jewish. So the fact they demand Hamas recognises it as a 'Jewish' state is obscene in the extreme!
 
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zakalwe1

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BTW this thread isn't even about the kidnapping. Couldn't be that you're posting on both threads, while lamenting the fact that poor lil Israel gets criticized too often, could it?

apols, corrected my post to reflect your point!
 

yanshuf

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Now let's see, mmm: Do Spanish people send suicide bombers to Gibraltar?

Do the Spanish people launch missiles towards Gibraltar? No!

So, I guess, there's no place for security measures.
 

yanshuf

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To sum this thread up, the only impediment to "peace" is the so called "Palestinians" decision to establish yet another entity on the ruins of Israel. Other than that, nothing stands between them and the thrive for "peace".
 

Clanrickard

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If the Palestinian state to be is anything like Gaza, when israel pulled out, then there won't be any Jews living there at all. That's what the Palestinians in Gaza wanted - a Jew free zone..
For the record some Jews wanted to stay in Gaza and Hamas said they were welcome to stay. The Israeli government forced them to leave because it was allegedly for their own safety. Make of that what you will.
 

Clanrickard

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1. There is and always will be a sttae of Israel which will consist of the ;land they had prior to 1967 and some of the large settlement blocks
2. There will be a Palestinian state which will consist of the land occupied by Israel in 1967 namely the West Bank and Gaza and some of East Jerusalem minus the large Jewish settlements and including some other bits of land given by Israel. It won't be 100% of what they want but it will be a viable state.
3. Israel will admit to a certain amount of ethnic cleansing and express regret and the Palestinians will express regret for terrorism and refusing to a deal when a deal was available.
4. There will be some symbolic right of return but not wholesale rights and compensation topped up by the EU and the US will be given to help the Palestinians
5. International monitors will monitor the peace.


That is how it will pan out and the sooner they both knuckle down to ironing things out the better. I think the EU should put sanctions on any group who refuses to accept a two state solution.
 

Interista

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That is how it will pan out
Oh yeah? With Israel basically keeping all the land it stole and colonized for the express purposes of 'creating facts on the ground', and retaining its identity as a racist state? You gotta love the constant use of 'some' in your post.

The Palestinians have never accepted this travesty of a 'solution' and there's no reason to believe they ever will. The worldwide balance of power is changing, and not in Israel's favour. Though right now it may seem as though Israel holds all the cards, it's future is precarious in the extreme.
 

Darth Brooks

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Cancer.

To sum this thread up, the only impediment to "peace" is the so called "Palestinians" decision to establish yet another entity on the ruins of Israel.
Careful what you wish for. There are people, perhaps like you, who would ruin Israel rather than make peace with the Palestinians. Take the Fascist demagogue Daniella Weiss. She has openly declared that she will do all in her power to provoke violence in order to stop the formation of a Palestinian State. She has no allegiance to the organs of the state of Israel. She is a worse existential threat to Israel than the Palestinians. For all her talk of not resorting to Killing, she would provoke a civil war and preside over a blood bath in Israel rather than remove a pathetic steel hut from Palestinian land. These fascists, like a cancer in the marrow of the bone, are the enemies of Israel. The time is rapidly approaching when Israel will have to face up to this threat. I don't know any other country in the world that has actively promoted, funded, protected and nurtured such a grave threat to itself on it's own doorstep.

Daniella Weiss: 'The Arabs are a filter through which we find our way to land' - Middle East, World - The Independent

....And what are the limits she wouldn't cross? "Not killing. Just not killing." Burning or stoning? "Stoning is complicated, because stoning entails dangers." Ms Weiss adds: "Damaging property I don't consider a sin, because the dearest property, the land [of Israel] is now in danger."

She insists that she is not talking here about "the Arabs but the Israeli authorities." My energy is directed in one direction: Jewish. I expect of the Jews, I confront Jews, I criticise Jews." So where exactly do the Arabs fit into the Weiss vision? "What will be with the Arabs is what it was with all the nations that were here all through history; they came and went.
.
 

zakalwe1

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Oh yeah? With Israel basically keeping all the land it stole and colonized for the express purposes of 'creating facts on the ground', and retaining its identity as a racist state? You gotta love the constant use of 'some' in your post.

The Palestinians have never accepted this travesty of a 'solution' and there's no reason to believe they ever will. The worldwide balance of power is changing, and not in Israel's favour. Though right now it may seem as though Israel holds all the cards, it's future is precarious in the extreme.
forgive me from being sceptical, but how is the future precarious???

how is the worldwide balance of power changing?
 

Clanrickard

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You gotta love the constant use of 'some' in your post.
.
Nobody will get everything they want but they will get some of what they want. Lets be clear the majority of Israelis want to leave the occupied territories and that has been consistently stated in poll after poll. What they want is a real partner for peace not people talking out of the side of their mouth.
 


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