The Settlements are the greatest impediment to Israeli-Palestinian Peace.

Interista

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Interesting to see your here zakalwe, I thought you had no time for threads on this subject?

how is the worldwide balance of power changing?
Uh, where have you been for the past several years? Never heard about the rise of China and India, and the accompanying decline of the US, and the West in general? Ever watch the news or read a book?

how is the future precarious???
Because colonial entities, when faced with a determined local resistance in a densely populated area, have always come a cropper sooner or later. Israel has only existed for 60 odd years, a blink of the eye in historical terms. The reason it has existed even that long is due to the weakness of the opposition, and the fact that it has benefitted from a very very powerful sponsor. However, neither condition can prevail forever. Demographics are very much against Israel, and there is little they can do about that - the high birth rate among the more maniacal West Bank squatters notwithstanding. Also, the rise of an Iran (about which again, Israel can do little) which refuses to toady to the US - itself in decline - will mean that Israel cannot simply steal land and kill at will without consequences. Israel simply cannot survive as a Western backed implant in the region, with no meaningful ties to surrounding nations (I don't mean the bribed 'peace deals' with the Egyptian and Jordanian dictatorships). Its demise is pretty much inevitable - it is only really a question of when and how.
 


Interista

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Nobody will get everything they want but they will get some of what they want.
Yeah, but in your 'solution' Israel really has to sacrifice very little. It keeps 'the large settlement blocs' (illegal) holds onto 'some' of occupied East Jerusalem (ditto) and does not have to sully the racist nature of the state with more than a token number of racially incorrect types.

Lets be clear the majority of Israelis want to leave the occupied territories and that has been consistently stated in poll after poll.
Isn't it strange then, that in the "Middle East's only democracy" Israelis again and again vote for parties (which is to say almost all of them) who actively support the settlements? If there were any genuine grassroots opposition to the settlements, it would be reflected in Israelis' voting patterns. Oh, and if, as you say, most Israelis want out of the occupied territories, why does your 'solution' envisage Israel keeping 'the large settlement blocs'?

What they want is a real partner for peace not people talking out of the side of their mouth.
Ah yes, the old cliche - double dealing Aye-rabs and straight talkin' Israelis. Like that Mark Regev guy?
 

L'Chaim

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You have no proof of that assertion whatsoever. It was the Government of Israel which demanded and enforced the Gaza Strip as a Jew Free Zone.
Not true at all. The withdrawl of Israel from the Gaza strip was part of the Oslo accords agreed and signed by the Israelis and the palestinian Authority in 1994, which was to be a phased transfer of authority in the Strip from Israel to Palestinian control. This agreement included the eventual withdrawl of troops, settlements and settlers. It's what the palestinian Authority wanted as part of the peace agreement.
 

Darth Brooks

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Full Withdrawal to the 1967 line ?

Lets be clear the majority of Israelis want to leave the occupied territories and that has been consistently stated in poll after poll. .
Could you please support this with the results of some polls after polls where this is clearly established.

Here's one poll conduct by the Pro-Israel propaganda outlet "One Voice Movement" which clearly contradicts your assertion.

Poll: Residents of Israel, Gaza and West Bank want 2 states

Eighty-six percent of the Palestinians are interested in an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders. Sixty percent of the Israelis say that this possibility is unacceptable, and 73% of the Palestinians believe that a border based on the separation fence is unacceptable. Thirty-five percent of the Israelis share this opinion.

Its probably more accurate to say that most Israelis support the partial withdrawal of Israel from the OPT with the retention of almost all the settlement blocs and the so-called security zones in Jordan Valley and the Bantustanisation of the remaining land for Palestinians. This is basically the same as endorsing the right-wing doctrines of the current regime.
 

L'Chaim

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Yes I have heard of calls for Gibraltar to be placed back into the hands of Spain.

On that issue; Can a Spanish person freely move from Spain into Gibraltar? Yes.
Is there free movement of goods from Gibraltar into Spain and vice versa? Yes

Can Spaniards and Gibraltan's travel on ANY roads they please between both areas? Yes.

Contrast that with Gaza/Isreal...


"Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon explains Israel's need for a clear Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state."

Dep FM Ayalon on recognizing Israel as a Jewish state 30-Jun-2009

It is one thing trying to demand Hamas recognise the Israeli state full stop, but Israel is NOT a Jewish state, with a huge number of the people living within it's boundaries a religion other than Jewish. So the fact they demand Hamas recognises it as a 'Jewish' state is obscene in the extreme!
But Gibraltar has not declared itself at war with Spain. The Palestinian authority in Gaza has declared itself at war with Israel. And as such, Israel is well within its rights to close its border to its enemies. And because Hamas has declared itself at war with Israel, Israel is entitled to place whatever trade embargoes it wants with Gaza. So only humanitarian aid gets through. Look at it this way, the US has had a trade embargo with Cuba for 50 years. And Cuba has never fired a rocket at America, declared itself at war with America, targeted America civilians for attack etc. Countries have trade embargoes with other countries all the time, for any number of reasons. Why should Israel have to operate to a different standard? Israel signed an agreement with the Palestinian Authority known as the Oslo Accords. In that agreement the palestinian authority agreed to recognize the right of Israel to exist in peace and security. Israel in return recognized the PLO. As long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, declares itself at war with israel, refuses to accept previous agreements signed by Israel and the palestinian Authority, and attacks Israel and kidnaps Israelis, then the border stays closed, and Israel is well within its rights in those circumstances to keep its borders closed.
 

Darth Brooks

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Israel's responsibilities in Gaza and the OPT in general.

L'Chaim asks : Why should Israel have to operate to a different standard? Israel signed an agreement with the Palestinian Authority known as the Oslo Accords.

Or asked in a different manner : Why should Israel always be allowed to operate to different standards? You cant expect to be taken seriously if you don't even make an effort to address Israel's responsibilities to the trapped people


Israel's obligations after the Oslo Agreement and the Gaza disengagement
Following the establishment of the Palestinian Authority (PA) under the Oslo Agreements in 1993, and the Gaza Disengagement Plan in September 2005, discussions arose regarding the scope of IHL obligations on the parties. These changes on the ground do not result in the suspension of the law of occupation. However relevant adaptations need to be made. Israel's specific positive IHL obligations towards the civilian population, such as the active duty to ensure public order inside the Gaza Strip, are consequently limited. This is similar to Israel’s IHL responsibilities in areas that are designated as area A and B under the Oslo Agreements. The adaptation of the level of responsibility does not change the status of the territory as occupied.

Below you will find a summary of the main responsabilities of an occupying power:

To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation (articles 55 and 56 IVGC).

The protection of children and the facilities for their upbringing (schools etc.). It must cooperate with national and local authorities, taking any measures necessary to facilitate the identification of children and ensuring that they receive adequate support (article 50 IVGC).

Allowing humanitarian aid shipments (food, clothing and medical supplies) for the benefit of the population and facilitating the accessibility of such shipments (article 59 IVGC).

Allowing civilians to receive personal aid shipments (article 62 IVGC).

The occupying power is prohibited to destroy any property unless it is absolutely necessary by military operation (article 53 IVGC).

The occupying power cannot confiscate private property (article 46 Hague Regulations).

Food and medical supplies may be requested for the use of the occupation forces but only if the needs of the civilian population have been taken into account (article 55 IVGC).

The occupying power may take control any movable public property, which may be used for military operations (article 53 Hague Regulations).

The occupying power does not obtain ownership of immovable public property in the occupied territory, since it is only a temporary administrator. Under certain restrictions, it can nevertheless make use of public property, including natural resources, but it must safeguard their value (article 55 Hague Regulations). The idea behind this regulation was to srve the needs of the occupying power and to maintain the assets of the occupied people until the conflict is resolved.


Diakonia - What is the Occupying Power Responsible For?
 

Clanrickard

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Its probably more accurate to say that most Israelis support the partial withdrawal of Israel from the OPT with the retention of almost all the settlement blocs and the so-called security zones in Jordan Valley and the Bantustanisation of the remaining land for Palestinians. This is basically the same as endorsing the right-wing doctrines of the current regime.
Partial withdrawal was what I should have said.
 

L'Chaim

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L'Chaim asks : Why should Israel have to operate to a different standard? Israel signed an agreement with the Palestinian Authority known as the Oslo Accords.

Or asked in a different manner : Why should Israel always be allowed to operate to different standards? You cant expect to be taken seriously if you don't even make an effort to address Israel's responsibilities to the trapped people


Israel's obligations after the Oslo Agreement and the Gaza disengagement
Following the establishment of the Palestinian Authority (PA) under the Oslo Agreements in 1993, and the Gaza Disengagement Plan in September 2005, discussions arose regarding the scope of IHL obligations on the parties. These changes on the ground do not result in the suspension of the law of occupation. However relevant adaptations need to be made. Israel's specific positive IHL obligations towards the civilian population, such as the active duty to ensure public order inside the Gaza Strip, are consequently limited. This is similar to Israel’s IHL responsibilities in areas that are designated as area A and B under the Oslo Agreements. The adaptation of the level of responsibility does not change the status of the territory as occupied.

Below you will find a summary of the main responsabilities of an occupying power:

To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation (articles 55 and 56 IVGC).

The protection of children and the facilities for their upbringing (schools etc.). It must cooperate with national and local authorities, taking any measures necessary to facilitate the identification of children and ensuring that they receive adequate support (article 50 IVGC).

Allowing humanitarian aid shipments (food, clothing and medical supplies) for the benefit of the population and facilitating the accessibility of such shipments (article 59 IVGC).

Allowing civilians to receive personal aid shipments (article 62 IVGC).

The occupying power is prohibited to destroy any property unless it is absolutely necessary by military operation (article 53 IVGC).

The occupying power cannot confiscate private property (article 46 Hague Regulations).

Food and medical supplies may be requested for the use of the occupation forces but only if the needs of the civilian population have been taken into account (article 55 IVGC).

The occupying power may take control any movable public property, which may be used for military operations (article 53 Hague Regulations).

The occupying power does not obtain ownership of immovable public property in the occupied territory, since it is only a temporary administrator. Under certain restrictions, it can nevertheless make use of public property, including natural resources, but it must safeguard their value (article 55 Hague Regulations). The idea behind this regulation was to srve the needs of the occupying power and to maintain the assets of the occupied people until the conflict is resolved.


Diakonia - What is the Occupying Power Responsible For?
The "trapped people" are Hamas' responsibility. As for the rest of your waffle and obfuscation; is there a point to it?
 

Darth Brooks

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The "trapped people" are Hamas' responsibility. As for the rest of your waffle and obfuscation; is there a point to it?
For a start you don't need to bother reposting every post you wish to ignore, just try reading them and responding.

The point is to illustrate what Israel's responsibilities are, to people that it has trapped, under International Law (as opposed to in your opinion).

Hamas cannot provide what it does not have. Hamas cannot get what it needs into Gaza because of the fact that they and all the people in there are trapped. You need to respond to this with a pertinent point or simply drop it.
 

L'Chaim

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For a start you don't need to bother reposting every post you wish to ignore, just try reading them and responding.

The point is to illustrate what Israel's responsibilities are, to people that it has trapped, under International Law (as opposed to in your opinion).

Hamas cannot provide what it does not have. Hamas cannot get what it needs into Gaza because of the fact that they and all the people in there are trapped. You need to respond to this with a pertinent point or simply drop it.
Israel has no responsibilities to the people of Gaza, except allowing humanitarian aid in......which it does. Israel no longer holds any controls or authority over the lands or institutions in Gaza. That control and authority is Hamas'. That's what the palestinian Authority wanted when they signed the Oslo Accords. They wanted Israel out of Gaza and Israel got out of Gaza. And now Hamas "cannot get what it needs into Gaza" because they refuse to recognize any agreements signed between the palestinian Authority and Israel, and they, on behalf of the majority of the people in Gaza who elected them, declares themselves at war with Israel. Hamas and the people who support them in Gaza have made their choices. That is their responsibility. If they are now looking for sympathy, they can find it in a dictionary, somewhere between sh*t and syphilis
 
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zakalwe1

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legally is it a "disputed territory" or "occupied territory"?

the difference is quite significant under international law.

aside. international law is pretty much meaningless...the real power behind legitimising conflicts etc lies with UNSC.

i see n.cyprus, chechnya, tibet, gdansk (or danzig as it was formerly known), and kaliningrad in the same light as israeli presence in palestine.
 

Shane 71

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If they are now looking for sympathy, they can find it in a dictionary, somewhere between sh*t and syphilis

Just because they do not belong to the same race as you. You are racist, zionist scum.
 

Interista

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i see n.cyprus, chechnya, tibet, gdansk (or danzig as it was formerly known), and kaliningrad in the same light as israeli presence in palestine.
Which presumably means you come on here offering excuses for atrocities committed by the Chinese and Russian armies?

legally is it a "disputed territory" or "occupied territory"?
Anyone who does not get their information from pro-Israeli sources knows that the position is very clear: the occupied territories are just that - occupied (although the Golan and East Jerusalem were illegally annexed.
 

FakeViking

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Israel has no responsibilities to the people of Gaza, except allowing humanitarian aid in......which it does.
John Ging, Irish-born head of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, highlighted continued inadequate access by residents of Gaza to humanitarian supplies such as food, medicine, blankets and clothes.
I know which one of these I trust, a lying spoofer or an internationally recognised Public Servant.
 

Nodin

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Israel has no responsibilities to the people of Gaza, except allowing humanitarian aid in......which it does. Israel no longer holds any controls or authority over the lands or institutions in Gaza.
You ran them over and put them in a locked room where you control the light, heat and water....
 

L'Chaim

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Which presumably means you come on here offering excuses for atrocities committed by the Chinese and Russian armies?



Anyone who does not get their information from pro-Israeli sources knows that the position is very clear: the occupied territories are just that - occupied (although the Golan and East Jerusalem were illegally annexed.
It is not occupied territory. It never was, and it certainly isn't since 2005 when Israel transfered authority in Gaza to the Palestinians, in accordance with the 1993 Oslo Accords
 

L'Chaim

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I know which one of these I trust, a lying spoofer or an internationally recognised Public Servant.
Well then your internationally recognized public servant should be able to tell you about the thousands of tons of aid and other provisions it steals from aid agencies, which it hands out or sells to its own supporters and not to all the people who need it. He should also be able to tell you about the Hamas attacks on aid crossings that prevents aid from getting to the people in Gaza. He should also be able to tell you how UN aid agencies suspended all aid shipments to Gaza until they get assurances from Hamas that all aid thefts by Hamas will stop
 


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