The shape of the political spectrum is wrong and needs re-configuration.

valamhic

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Google “political spectrum” and see the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum. Note the shape of the various spectrums (spectra) from a bar to a diamond shape. However, note there is no circle. The traditional shape is a straight bar with left (socialists) on the left originating with the seating arrangements in France after the revolution there and right after the conservatives sitting on the right side of the room.

There are a number of difficulties with the established models of which the straight horizontal bar is the most typical. Where do you find the most brute murderous force being used by the state in peacetime? North Korea for the communists states and South American capitalists states of the 1980’s. (Franco’s Spain). Medieval England used executions to keep government in power. Where do you find a majority of unhappy citizens and the absence of basis human rights? You find it at the opposite ends of the political spectrum, extreme left and extreme right.

If someone were to identify an example of political and social misery, worst than anything experienced before now and if it were to be placed on the spectrum, where would it fit? It could not fit on the existing spectrum, so the existing spectrum could not be used. It would have to be extended to include the new example. That means the existing spectrum is incomplete, it cannot accommodate all eventualities. So what is my view?

The political spectrum is not a straight bar, it is not a straight line, it is a circle like the face of a clock. 6 o’clock is when there is equilibrium between government and people. Citizens are happy, government is happy, there is rule of law where everyone is happy and there is a high quality of life. The political hand points to 6 o’clock. As the hand moves to the left or to the right, the quality of life gets worse for most citizens until at 9 and 3 there is near total state control. As the hand gets near 12, government is maintained by brute military force and public executions on a grand scale. Franco’s garrotting is an example. It has been a huge mistake to believe the spectrum is a straight bar, we need to review it and come to realize that it is a circle as described.

The circle model, brings us to a point at 12 where it does not matter whether the hand of government is to the left or to the right, it has no mandate to rule and its left or right wing agenda is irrelevant. At 12 societies greatest problems is the government, not the government’s policies.
 


Jim Car

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Google “political spectrum” and see the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum. Note the shape of the various spectrums (spectra) from a bar to a diamond shape. However, note there is no circle. The traditional shape is a straight bar with left (socialists) on the left originating with the seating arrangements in France after the revolution there and right after the conservatives sitting on the right side of the room.

There are a number of difficulties with the established models of which the straight horizontal bar is the most typical. Where do you find the most brute murderous force being used by the state in peacetime? North Korea for the communists states and South American capitalists states of the 1980’s. (Franco’s Spain). Medieval England used executions to keep government in power. Where do you find a majority of unhappy citizens and the absence of basis human rights? You find it at the opposite ends of the political spectrum, extreme left and extreme right.

If someone were to identify an example of political and social misery, worst than anything experienced before now and if it were to be placed on the spectrum, where would it fit? It could not fit on the existing spectrum, so the existing spectrum could not be used. It would have to be extended to include the new example. That means the existing spectrum is incomplete, it cannot accommodate all eventualities. So what is my view?

The political spectrum is not a straight bar, it is not a straight line, it is a circle like the face of a clock. 6 o’clock is when there is equilibrium between government and people. Citizens are happy, government is happy, there is rule of law where everyone is happy and there is a high quality of life. The political hand points to 6 o’clock. As the hand moves to the left or to the right, the quality of life gets worse for most citizens until at 9 and 3 there is near total state control. As the hand gets near 12, government is maintained by brute military force and public executions on a grand scale. Franco’s garrotting is an example. It has been a huge mistake to believe the spectrum is a straight bar, we need to review it and come to realize that it is a circle as described.

The circle model, brings us to a point at 12 where it does not matter whether the hand of government is to the left or to the right, it has no mandate to rule and its left or right wing agenda is irrelevant. At 12 societies greatest problems is the government, not the government’s policies.
Also the fact that people don't actually use political labels properly contributes to them them not making any sense or being incapable of accurately reflecting peoples believes. Take the classical left right scale. Left equals stateists socialists and at the extreme end communism and right should equal anti stateists free markets, libertarians ect. Now look at how some people continuously misrepresent this, biggest cases in point national socialists who are anti capitalists pro big government being described as far right when ideologically they are clearly and self admittedly to the left. Main reason for the jumble is ideologies produce movements that they then want to divorce themselves from due to bad PR so they simply label them as being from the other side. Plenty of others like Mao and Stalin did this accusing party 'comrades' of be 'centrist, rightist, reactionary's' ect during purges and power struggles.

So the main reason for the spectrum not being accurate is because cretin groups want to occupy a set position but dont like the bad rep that comes with groups that emerged from similar positions so they paint them as being from a completely different political ideology to allow them to criticize that and continue to occupy their preferred space leading unsurprisingly to a complete mess especially for those with little to no understanding when it comes to trying to place these said groups on the political spectrum.
 

valamhic

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Also the fact that people don't actually use political labels properly contributes to them them not making any sense or being incapable of accurately reflecting peoples believes. Take the classical left right scale. Left equals stateists socialists and at the extreme end communism and right should equal anti stateists free markets, libertarians ect. Now look at how some people continuously misrepresent this, biggest cases in point national socialists who are anti capitalists pro big government being described as far right when ideologically they are clearly and self admittedly to the left. Main reason for the jumble is ideologies produce movements that they then want to divorce themselves from due to bad PR so they simply label them as being from the other side. Plenty of others like Mao and Stalin did this accusing party 'comrades' of be 'centrist, rightist, reactionary's' ect during purges and power struggles.

So the main reason for the spectrum not being accurate is because cretin groups want to occupy a set position but dont like the bad rep that comes with groups that emerged from similar positions so they paint them as being from a completely different political ideology to allow them to criticize that and continue to occupy their preferred space leading unsurprisingly to a complete mess especially for those with little to no understanding when it comes to trying to place these said groups on the political spectrum.
A good start to the thread on a very complex subject. The first thing to my mind, is whether there is only left and right in politics or is that confined to the 19 and 20 centuries. The problem with left / right is that if a poor family are finding it hard they will vote in favour of state spending so get a little of it. Say than that their child becomes educated and enters business where he/she is very successful, that child may not want the leftist state to continue and my want more financial and personal freedom. Visa versa if the rich child does bad. I suspect the left /right will remain the principle ideology and therefore remain on the spectrum. If so, the correct identification of that spectrum is essential
 

valamhic

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Small primitive groups of less than 150 members were socialist in nature with a leader or king. Natives in North America are an example in the 17th centuries. If these get together, they may form a state. When does that happen? I would think it is when the entity develops a foreign polity. That foreign policy will have a defense aspect based on diplomacy and military might. Marrying the neighbouring Kings daughter being a great way to do it.
 

okibb

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Political Compass has a good eval on this;

Left vs. Right complemented by Liberal vs. Authoritarian.

Four poles.

Hitler was Left Authoritarian, Thatcher was Right Authoritarian etc.
 

TedHankey

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Google “political spectrum” and see the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum. Note the shape of the various spectrums (spectra) from a bar to a diamond shape. However, note there is no circle. The traditional shape is a straight bar with left (socialists) on the left originating with the seating arrangements in France after the revolution there and right after the conservatives sitting on the right side of the room.

There are a number of difficulties with the established models of which the straight horizontal bar is the most typical. Where do you find the most brute murderous force being used by the state in peacetime? North Korea for the communists states and South American capitalists states of the 1980’s. (Franco’s Spain). Medieval England used executions to keep government in power. Where do you find a majority of unhappy citizens and the absence of basis human rights? You find it at the opposite ends of the political spectrum, extreme left and extreme right.

If someone were to identify an example of political and social misery, worst than anything experienced before now and if it were to be placed on the spectrum, where would it fit? It could not fit on the existing spectrum, so the existing spectrum could not be used. It would have to be extended to include the new example. That means the existing spectrum is incomplete, it cannot accommodate all eventualities. So what is my view?

The political spectrum is not a straight bar, it is not a straight line, it is a circle like the face of a clock. 6 o’clock is when there is equilibrium between government and people. Citizens are happy, government is happy, there is rule of law where everyone is happy and there is a high quality of life. The political hand points to 6 o’clock. As the hand moves to the left or to the right, the quality of life gets worse for most citizens until at 9 and 3 there is near total state control. As the hand gets near 12, government is maintained by brute military force and public executions on a grand scale. Franco’s garrotting is an example. It has been a huge mistake to believe the spectrum is a straight bar, we need to review it and come to realize that it is a circle as described.

The circle model, brings us to a point at 12 where it does not matter whether the hand of government is to the left or to the right, it has no mandate to rule and its left or right wing agenda is irrelevant. At 12 societies greatest problems is the government, not the government’s policies.
So what would be some of the examples of the clock face? What's at 6? Where is RoI? 4pm or 7pm? Do North Koreans know they're at 3pm? I'd love to see the countries plotted on the clock face to get a greater idea of your system.
 

edwin

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Google “political spectrum” and see the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum. Note the shape of the various spectrums (spectra) from a bar to a diamond shape. However, note there is no circle. The traditional shape is a straight bar with left (socialists) on the left originating with the seating arrangements in France after the revolution there and right after the conservatives sitting on the right side of the room.

There are a number of difficulties with the established models of which the straight horizontal bar is the most typical. Where do you find the most brute murderous force being used by the state in peacetime? North Korea for the communists states and South American capitalists states of the 1980’s. (Franco’s Spain). Medieval England used executions to keep government in power. Where do you find a majority of unhappy citizens and the absence of basis human rights? You find it at the opposite ends of the political spectrum, extreme left and extreme right.

If someone were to identify an example of political and social misery, worst than anything experienced before now and if it were to be placed on the spectrum, where would it fit? It could not fit on the existing spectrum, so the existing spectrum could not be used. It would have to be extended to include the new example. That means the existing spectrum is incomplete, it cannot accommodate all eventualities. So what is my view?

The political spectrum is not a straight bar, it is not a straight line, it is a circle like the face of a clock. 6 o’clock is when there is equilibrium between government and people. Citizens are happy, government is happy, there is rule of law where everyone is happy and there is a high quality of life. The political hand points to 6 o’clock. As the hand moves to the left or to the right, the quality of life gets worse for most citizens until at 9 and 3 there is near total state control. As the hand gets near 12, government is maintained by brute military force and public executions on a grand scale. Franco’s garrotting is an example. It has been a huge mistake to believe the spectrum is a straight bar, we need to review it and come to realize that it is a circle as described.

The circle model, brings us to a point at 12 where it does not matter whether the hand of government is to the left or to the right, it has no mandate to rule and its left or right wing agenda is irrelevant. At 12 societies greatest problems is the government, not the government’s policies.
A lot of sense to this. Take France for example, there is actually very little difference between Front National and the far left. they agree on far more than they disagree, immigration being to some extent the main difference.

Don't expect the blind disciples of left and right to agree though. To them, their identity as ideologues to some extent replaces national identity.
 

TedHankey

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The political spectrum used by some places like the political compass involves not just a left - right axis on economics but also an authoritarian - libertarian axis. Together it grabs both dimensions of how governments manifest. The diamond models are similar and have the same two axes.
 
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The political spectrum used by some places like the political compass involves not just a left - right axis on economics but also an authoritarian - libertarian axis. Together it grabs both dimensions of how governments manifest. The diamond models are similar and have the same two axes.
Hence the OP. He presents a simplistic model. I think personally that there are more than two dimensions to the thing.
 

valamhic

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Political Compass has a good eval on this;

Left vs. Right complemented by Liberal vs. Authoritarian.

Four poles.

Hitler was Left Authoritarian, Thatcher was Right Authoritarian etc.
Yes, I saw that. The problem is what happens when more extreme events can't be accommodated on the bar spectrum. There is a very obvious similarity between a communist state which had become very oppressive (pol pot) and a capitalist state which has become very oppressive. Non truly have the support of their publics at all. They try to rely of other form of legitimacy (Henry 8th trying to prove his ancestry entitled him to be King). The circular model enables both left and right to meet at 12 and maintain their oppression through force. It can only be relieve by the hand moving downwards at some time
 

valamhic

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So what would be some of the examples of the clock face? What's at 6? Where is RoI? 4pm or 7pm? Do North Koreans know they're at 3pm? I'd love to see the countries plotted on the clock face to get a greater idea of your system.
Very good question. 6 o'clock is the ideal. The people are happy, society is genuinely fair. Government is happy. The public servants are happy, old people are happy as are young people. There is no need for corruption because there is a greater benefit from being at 6. The only threat is immigration, the attraction of countries at 6 to countries not at 6.

9 is democratic socialism where there is a constitution and the right to vote. One minute past 9 and there is no democracy, its a dictatorship. Same for 3 except its right wing

The big point I make is, all eventualities can be fitted in the model.
 

valamhic

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A lot of sense to this. Take France for example, there is actually very little difference between Front National and the far left. they agree on far more than they disagree, immigration being to some extent the main difference.

Don't expect the blind disciples of left and right to agree though. To them, their identity as ideologues to some extent replaces national identity.
Yes. The purpose of this thread in not for me to win or lose, it is to provoke the idea that the model may be wrong. It will take a little time for posters to consider. I don't mind if I am wrong at all. But i think I may have spotted something.
 

valamhic

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The political spectrum used by some places like the political compass involves not just a left - right axis on economics but also an authoritarian - libertarian axis. Together it grabs both dimensions of how governments manifest. The diamond models are similar and have the same two axes.
The diamond model has a lot going for it, I can see the issue now being raised about another spectrum, authoritarianism -v- liberalism.

I am struggling with this I can tell you.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Surely the real problem is when politicians pretend to be one thing and then act completely different.

Labels are all very fine, but they're only labels in the end of the day and actions, results and outcomes should be how we judge politicians and their parties.

Labour here are the established "left" party but joined FG in making it harder to be a working tax payer in Ireland and easier to be a tax dodging "entrepreneur" or an illegal refugee.

FF are badged the "republican" party but sold off our sovereignty to European bankers.

Labels and badges don't work - we need a smarter electorate and a more honest media.
 

farnaby

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The circle model, brings us to a point at 12 where it does not matter whether the hand of government is to the left or to the right, it has no mandate to rule and its left or right wing agenda is irrelevant. At 12 societies greatest problems is the government, not the government’s policies.
Explain 12 a bit more - are we talking about lawless 'states' such as Somalia or divided, war-torn states e.g. Syria right now?
 

valamhic

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Lets look at what could move the hand from 6.


Everyone likes to spend their time in their own wee way. Fishing, drinking, watching TV, model making and cooking. Wine and beer making or GAA Ruby etc. 40 years ago in Ireland, the majority of the people spent at least one hour at church each week and some 7 hours per week. They were scared of hell, wanted favours and subject to pier pressure. So they exchanged private time for church time.

So if we park religion altogether. How can politicians and their lobbyists move the hand away from 6. It can be a scare, invasion imminent, raise an army, tax and do what they like, It can be to victimize a minority. (Jews are the problem) when its is actually them themselves who are to blame, law abiding gay people etc.

Next is to promise them something better than they already have. A tax cut, a new bridge. Most voters won't fall for that but a few will. A good voted needs knowledge, either education or self education.
 

valamhic

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Surely the real problem is when politicians pretend to be one thing and then act completely different.

Labels are all very fine, but they're only labels in the end of the day and actions, results and outcomes should be how we judge politicians and their parties.

Labour here are the established "left" party but joined FG in making it harder to be a working tax payer in Ireland and easier to be a tax dodging "entrepreneur" or an illegal refugee.

FF are badged the "republican" party but sold off our sovereignty to European bankers.

Labels and badges don't work - we need a smarter electorate and a more honest media.
Remember that at 6 o'clock, everything is running smoothly. Politicians make only reasonable promises and the people realize public spending is with their own money. Everyone is basically decent. It is the imperfections in human beings that move the hand away from 6.

If gravity were evenly distributed in the universe there would be no stars or planets. You are in a way right about labels being irrelevant but most thing have some model or other to allow us see the broader picture. If the model were established, then the public could assess where exactly their society is on the clock and hanker after the 6 o'clock position. They might never get to it, but they would be working in the right direction.
 

valamhic

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Explain 12 a bit more - are we talking about lawless 'states' such as Somalia or divided, war-torn states e.g. Syria right now?
We are talking about utter and complete chaos. War, iron heel dictatorship. I suspect the hand can never be maintained at 6 or at 12, it oscillates over an back a bit. At 12 everyone is in complete misery, government, people, public servants, business people, patients in Hospitals, school children. Horrible and the trouble is the hand could be moving towards 12 and voters might not be aware of it. That is where the model comes in handy. You can see the hand's position. With the straight bar, you might think it can only go to the end each side. With the circle it identifies the misery of all political ideologies except control by an educated tolerant fair minder population.

Remember the city of London feeds 11 million hungry people at lunchtime each day with no government interference and no dominant business at all. So lunchtime in London is close to 6 o'clock
 

ruman

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Political Compass has a good eval on this;

Left vs. Right complemented by Liberal vs. Authoritarian.

Four poles.

Hitler was Left Authoritarian, Thatcher was Right Authoritarian etc.
wtf ? What exactly was authoritarian about Thatcher
 


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