The Skripal affair: an act of war, & a war crime


owedtojoy

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It is no longer contested that there is a so-called "cluster" of journos on double payroll at mainstream media outlets including the BBC, the Graun and the Times, working to ensure the dominance of the UK government narrative and smearing anyone who dissents from it. But it's all legit.
I contest it.

It is a loada bollocks, IMHO, unless you can show better evidence than a vacuous assertion and a fake playbill.
 

Faughart

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From the Christmas/New Year edition of Private Eye:
integr.jpgintegr1.jpg
The UK government doesn't dispute the existence of the Integrity Initiative, or the accuracy of all the publicised documents, including the £2 million figure. The docs reveal that the work of its 'clusters' of friendly journos are at the core of its activities - but maybe we should believe the £2 million (and other uncontested six figure handouts from the likes of the US State dept and Facebook) is all spent on stationery? Full details are found in this exhaustive briefing note by a team of UK academics: Briefing note on the Integrity Initiative Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media
 

Faughart

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Alright I'm going to concede that the Integrity Initiative docs don't actually prove "cluster" members are on "double payroll" as I stated. To quote from the Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media cited above:

From the expenditure records and budgets it appears that most cluster members who were not employees of the Institute were unpaid, except for a few consultancy payments for specific tasks such as preparing a report. A more subtle incentive to take part in such a scheme would have been the advantages of being on the inside, networking with senior government officials and military intelligence specialists. All concerned would know that this would open doors to future posts, consultancies and grant funding. On this basis, participants in such a network could reasonably be expected to declare their membership as a competing interest, whatever their personal motives for participating.
However the existence of this UK govt-funded anti-Russian smear unit underlines the fact that intelligence services are in the business of manipulating public perceptions. Anyone who thinks there aren't fully paid-up intelligence personnel on the staff of the BBC, the Times and the Graun - as if MI6 etc didn't understand how useful they could be - is living in cloud cuckoo land.
 

rainmaker

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Alright I'm going to concede that the Integrity Initiative docs don't actually prove "cluster" members are on "double payroll" as I stated. To quote from the Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media cited above:



However the existence of this UK govt-funded anti-Russian smear unit underlines the fact that intelligence services are in the business of manipulating public perceptions. Anyone who thinks there aren't fully paid-up intelligence personnel on the staff of the BBC, the Times and the Graun - as if MI6 etc didn't understand how useful they could be - is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Except none of that explains how two Russian assets flew to the UK for a two day visit to see a Spire, that they never go to look at, but some how manage to twice end up on CCTV near the home of a Russian dissident who is found poisoned with a Russian nerve agent a few hours later.

Because the Russian explanation dismissing it all as coincidence is more credible than your idea of a huge conspiracy to make Putin look bad.
 

Faughart

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...the Russian explanation dismissing it all as coincidence is more credible
The Russians are derided for offering countless different explanations (as would be expected from a country that has been framed). You can't have it both ways.

than your idea of a huge conspiracy to make Putin look bad.
In 2002-03, I assume you don't pretend there wasn't a "huge conspiracy" to make Saddam Hussein "look bad" - which involved smearing him with a readiness to use WMD? Does any of that sound familiar?
 

rainmaker

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The Russians are derided for offering countless different explanations (as would be expected from a country that has been framed). You can't have it both ways.
Framed? What an idiotic claim.

Explain two Russian assets deciding to fly to the UK, to visit a rural Cathedral that they never visit, instead being caught on CCTV close to the home of a Russian dissident found poisoned with Russian nerve agent later the same day.

All your talk of WMDs and secret groups, claims that most journalists in the UK are government agents, cannot explain that, can they.
 

Faughart

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Framed? What an idiotic claim.
There are professors and other senior academics who would respectfully disagree with your use of that adjective.

...two Russian assets deciding to fly to the UK, to visit a rural Cathedral that they never visit, instead being caught on CCTV close to the home of a Russian dissident found poisoned with Russian nerve agent later the same day.
Yes, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to see if the two men were framed.

All your talk of WMDs and secret groups, claims that most journalists in the UK are government agents, cannot explain that, can they.
This is a puerile distortion of what I've said, from someone whose mind is totally closed to the idea that HMG are capable of doing anything so devious.
 

stanley

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There are professors and other senior academics who would respectfully disagree with your use of that adjective.



Yes, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to see if the two men were framed.



This is a puerile distortion of what I've said, from someone whose mind is totally closed to the idea that HMG are capable of doing anything so devious.



Putin wishes to restore the USSR and has decided he needs to break-up the EU and NATO to achieve same.

If Russia had not gained from Western technology in extracting oil from difficult places also metal ores, Putin would be in a very different position, any Western company who went in there, to put it plainly were robbed.

Assets are in the hands of the Oligarchs and Putin simply asks them for monies, skipping out taxation.

Majority of Russians live hand to mouth, Putin needs their sons as fodder for his ambitions.
 

rainmaker

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Yes, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to see if the two men were framed
Ok then, so you are actually claiming that it was just a massive coincidence that two Russian intelligence assets flew to the UK for a weekend break in Salisbury & accidentally wandered the Skripals neighborhood on the day they were poisoned.

Righto - dismissed.
 

Faughart

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Ok then, so you are actually claiming that it was just a massive coincidence that two Russian intelligence assets flew to the UK for a weekend break in Salisbury & accidentally wandered the Skripals neighborhood on the day they were poisoned.

Righto - dismissed.
No, I'm not "actually claiming" anything like that, as you'll realise if you reflect for a moment on what is commonly understood by the word "framed". But by all means treat me as "dismissed" if you like - I promise not to take offence.
 

rainmaker

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No, I'm not "actually claiming" anything like that, as you'll realise if you reflect for a moment on what is commonly understood by the word "framed". But by all means treat me as "dismissed" if you like - I promise not to take offence.
Well, I could care less whether you're offended by it or not. I am of course well aware of the meaning of the term 'framed' - particularly within the context you used it.

And your use of it in this case clearly implies you believe it a coincidence that two Russian intelligence assets were genuinely taking a weekend break in Salisbury & lurking close to the Skripal home on the day they were poisoned with a Russian nerve agent.

It is so far fetched one would have to be a credulous oaf of the highest order to swallow it.
 

Faughart

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Well, I could care less whether you're offended by it or not. I am of course well aware of the meaning of the term 'framed' - particularly within the context you used it.

And your use of it in this case clearly implies you believe it a coincidence that two Russian intelligence assets were genuinely taking a weekend break in Salisbury & lurking close to the Skripal home on the day they were poisoned with a Russian nerve agent.

It is so far fetched one would have to be a credulous oaf of the highest order to swallow it.
After the Guildford and Birmingham pub bombings, it was a tiny persistent group who maintained the innocence of the folks who were wrongfully imprisoned. The vast majority either ignored or sneered at these people. I'm not saying there's a perfect comparison - for instance the British didn't orchestrate a situation in which the wrongly accused visited the pubs in question in those earlier cases - but the rush to premature judgement is eerily similar. And in a similar way, sooner or later one side will be vindicated while the other will not. Why not answer a question from me though - how did both the Skripals survive an attack with military grade nerve agent (developed to wipe out soldiers by their thousands on a battlefield), and why haven't we heard anything except a pre-scripted, pre-recorded statement from Yulia - nothing whatsoever from Sergei? Why aren't either of them even permitted to communicate with his mother?
 

Faughart

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I think you have to be a credulous oaf of a fairly high order to swallow this:
Skripals-696x418.jpg
 

rainmaker

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After the Guildford and Birmingham pub bombings, it was a tiny persistent group ...?
Again, using previous genuine cases to try and lend credibility to your gallant defence of Putin's henchmen. Unfortunately that is entry level conspiracy theory stuff.

Your entire defence still demands we accept it a coincidence that two Russian assets flew into the UK to visit Salisbury Cathedral, & then instead lurk around near the home of a Russian dissident, who is found poisoned a few hours later by a Russian toxin.

What's next- are you going to try and sell me some prime beach front property on the Swiss coast?
 

Faughart

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Again, using previous genuine cases to try and lend credibility to your gallant defence of Putin's henchmen. Unfortunately that is entry level conspiracy theory stuff.

Your entire defence still demands we accept it a coincidence that two Russian assets flew into the UK to visit Salisbury Cathedral, & then instead lurk around near the home of a Russian dissident, who is found poisoned a few hours later by a Russian toxin.

What's next- are you going to try and sell me some prime beach front property on the Swiss coast?
I like that - beach front property on the Swiss coast. Hilarious. Less sharp-witted though is the way you stubbornly feign an inability to grasp that "framing" people can involve duping them into visiting places where they will be incriminated. That actually falls within the dictionary definition of "framing" - do you understand? Therefore, I'm not saying it's a "coincidence" the two Russians were in Salisbury (and it follows of course I don't think they were telling 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' in their celebrated TV interview). If you want to discuss coincidences though - how about the fact that the chief nursing officer of the British army happened to be walking past at the moment the Skripals collapsed, and was therefore the first adult to give them first aid? https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2782928/exclusive-teenage-girl-describes-moment-she-found-collapsed-skripals/
 

middleground

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Analytical piece by Craig Murray exposes darkness in UK Government's position on Skripals. Conclusion is that the Skripals, the UK, and Russia were all up to no good. Implication is that the Skripals are probably prisoners now.

Craig Murray
 
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Jack O Neill

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Framed? What an idiotic claim.

Explain two Russian assets deciding to fly to the UK, to visit a rural Cathedral that they never visit, instead being caught on CCTV close to the home of a Russian dissident found poisoned with Russian nerve agent later the same day.

All your talk of WMDs and secret groups, claims that most journalists in the UK are government agents, cannot explain that, can they.
Still talking about it i see , why have you British not invaded and thought those old Russians a lesson , get on with it
 

rainmaker

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Still talking about it i see , why have you British not invaded and thought those old Russians a lesson , get on with it
I am replying to other posters who mentioned it first.

It's not rocket science so at least try to keep up,
 

owedtojoy

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After the Guildford and Birmingham pub bombings, it was a tiny persistent group who maintained the innocence of the folks who were wrongfully imprisoned. The vast majority either ignored or sneered at these people. I'm not saying there's a perfect comparison - for instance the British didn't orchestrate a situation in which the wrongly accused visited the pubs in question in those earlier cases - but the rush to premature judgement is eerily similar. And in a similar way, sooner or later one side will be vindicated while the other will not. Why not answer a question from me though - how did both the Skripals survive an attack with military grade nerve agent (developed to wipe out soldiers by their thousands on a battlefield), and why haven't we heard anything except a pre-scripted, pre-recorded statement from Yulia - nothing whatsoever from Sergei? Why aren't either of them even permitted to communicate with his mother?
Well, are you claiming the bombs in Birmingham and Guildford planted themselves?

Evidence points to the IRA (e.g. coded warnings, bombs used), the Salisbury nerve gas attack evidence points to Russian Intelligence (e.g. known operatives recorded in the area, use of a favourite Russian weapon).

And you will be delighted to learn that Sergei Skrpal's quality of life will never return to what it was, his health is deteriorating and his life will have been shortened by his poisoning. Probably his daughter's, also.
 

Jack O Neill

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I am replying to other posters who mentioned it first.

It's not rocket science so at least try to keep up,
I am keeping up alright , just cant understand how you brave people are allowing this "act of war " to go unpunished :rolleyes:
 
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