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The so called democratic deficit - Brexit

ger12

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Feb 25, 2011
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48,256
European legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, on behalf of the people, and by the Council of Ministers, on behalf of the national governments.

The Commission is approved by, and it can be removed by, the European Parliament.

So what's this democratic deficit that's complained about by the leave side that's left unchallenged when Brexit is debated?
 


Ireniall

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Joined
Oct 7, 2011
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8,278
European legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, on behalf of the people, and by the Council of Ministers, on behalf of the national governments.

The Commission is approved by, and it can be removed by, the European Parliament.

So what's this democratic deficit that's complained about by the leave side that's left unchallenged when Brexit is debated?
In any case if we want to curtail total federalism in Europe we will need the national governments to have a superior democratic mandate as they do now. By making EU level bodies more democratic you give them more clout. It seems to me that Brexiteers simply list off everything that they can think of as wrong with the EU without any assessment of the desirability of these things even by their own sceptical point of view
 

daveL

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Oct 29, 2010
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19,593
European legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, on behalf of the people, and by the Council of Ministers, on behalf of the national governments.

The Commission is approved by, and it can be removed by, the European Parliament.

So what's this democratic deficit that's complained about by the leave side that's left unchallenged when Brexit is debated?
Mother in law didn't know that there was a directly elected EP nor did she know about the council of ministers. She didn't know that MEPs were elected claiming that she didn't get to elect her local MEP.

Whatever about democratic deficits - there's definitely a knowledge deficit
 

Mad as Fish

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Joined
Dec 6, 2012
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24,449
European legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, on behalf of the people, and by the Council of Ministers, on behalf of the national governments.

The Commission is approved by, and it can be removed by, the European Parliament.

So what's this democratic deficit that's complained about by the leave side that's left unchallenged when Brexit is debated?
Sounds great in theory but the practicality is that it is so remote and distant from the voters that it's meaningless.
 

GDPR

1
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Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,089
Heres what is meant by the European democratic deficit,

I didn


Quote:

In our meeting, I challenged(EU Trade Commissioner) Malmström over the huge opposition to TTIP across Europe. In the last year, a record three and a quarter million European citizens have signed the petition against it. Thousands of meetings and protests have been held across all 28 EU member states, including a spectacular 250,000-strong demonstration in Berlin this weekend.


When put to her, Malmström acknowledged that a trade deal has never inspired such passionate and widespread opposition. Yet when I asked the trade commissioner how she could continue her persistent promotion of the deal in the face of such massive public opposition, her response came back icy cold: “I do not take my mandate from the European people.”
 

ger12

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Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,256
Sounds great in theory but the practicality is that it is so remote and distant from the voters that it's meaningless.
Some posters said that about the last Irish government. What alternative to democracy would you rather?
 

ger12

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,256
Heres what is meant by the European democratic deficit,

I didn


Quote:

In our meeting, I challenged(EU Trade Commissioner) Malmström over the huge opposition to TTIP across Europe. In the last year, a record three and a quarter million European citizens have signed the petition against it. Thousands of meetings and protests have been held across all 28 EU member states, including a spectacular 250,000-strong demonstration in Berlin this weekend.


When put to her, Malmström acknowledged that a trade deal has never inspired such passionate and widespread opposition. Yet when I asked the trade commissioner how she could continue her persistent promotion of the deal in the face of such massive public opposition, her response came back icy cold: “I do not take my mandate from the European people.”
Who appoints appoints EU commissioners?
 

GDPR

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Who appoints appoints EU commissioners?
You are missing the point. The EU is not a union of peoples but of political elites. It is simply too remote from the average voter for them to feel they are represented by it or have any influence over it. And we know that the Council of Ministers takes decisions behind closed doors which are unminuted, unobserved and unmonitored by the Parliament. Shewer Parliament can reject legislation and national govts can in some instances block it or obtain a derogation, but all of this happens on a supranational level which is very far from the individual voter.

So basically they have no sense of allegiance to it or indeed any involvement in it. It is opaque to them in a way the national legislatures are not, though I agree they are not exactly bastions of enlightened representation either, so please no straw men about how the EU Parliament is more democratic on paper than Westminster, for example.

Basically the EU allows the national elites to pass the buck and absolve themselves of any responsibility to engage in tough internal debates by legislating from Brussels over the heads of their own electorates. And we know the EU has made huge decisions, eg the Euro, which turned out to be plonking great disasters though it suited the big players at the time.
 

Plebian

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Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
9,342
European legislation has to be approved by the European Parliament, on behalf of the people, and by the Council of Ministers, on behalf of the national governments.

The Commission is approved by, and it can be removed by, the European Parliament.

So what's this democratic deficit that's complained about by the leave side that's left unchallenged when Brexit is debated?
A country like Ireland has very little power in the EU. Its Govts have to pick their fights with very little muscle behind them, so the big countries like Germany get to direct the EU project via the likes of Angela Merkel while countries like Ireland get their leaders heads patted condescendingly.

The German electorate gets listened to at EU level the electorates of smaller and poorer countries get to listen to the EU.
 

gleeful

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Federalism is the way to make the EU more democratic. But Brexiters oppose federalism.
 

ger12

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Feb 25, 2011
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You are missing the point. The EU is not a union of peoples but of political elites. It is simply too remote from the average voter for them to feel they are represented by it or have any influence over it. And we know that the Council of Ministers takes decisions behind closed doors which are unminuted, unobserved and unmonitored by the Parliament. Shewer Parliament can reject legislation and national govts can in some instances block it or obtain a derogation, but all of this happens on a supranational level which is very far from the individual voter.

So basically they have no sense of allegiance to it or indeed any involvement in it. It is opaque to them in a way the national legislatures are not, though I agree they are not exactly bastions of enlightened representation either, so please no straw men about how the EU Parliament is more democratic on paper than Westminster, for example.

Basically the EU allows the national elites to pass the buck and absolve themselves of any responsibility to engage in tough internal debates by legislating from Brussels over the heads of their own electorates. And we know the EU has made huge decisions, eg the Euro, which turned out to be plonking great disasters though it suited the big players at the time.
We elect those "national elites".
 

ger12

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,256
A country like Ireland has very little power in the EU. Its Govts have to pick their fights with very little muscle behind them, so the big countries like Germany get to direct the EU project via the likes of Angela Merkel while countries like Ireland get their leaders heads patted condescendingly.

The German electorate gets listened to at EU level the electorates of smaller and poorer countries get to listen to the EU.
Only when they allow their heads to be patted.
 

ger12

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Unfortunately it's a natural part of the leader-follower relationship.
If Sarkozy tried that on me he'd have gotten an an earful irrespective of where the cameras were pointed.
 

Ireniall

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Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
8,278
Heres what is meant by the European democratic deficit,

I didn


Quote:

In our meeting, I challenged(EU Trade Commissioner) Malmström over the huge opposition to TTIP across Europe. In the last year, a record three and a quarter million European citizens have signed the petition against it. Thousands of meetings and protests have been held across all 28 EU member states, including a spectacular 250,000-strong demonstration in Berlin this weekend.


When put to her, Malmström acknowledged that a trade deal has never inspired such passionate and widespread opposition. Yet when I asked the trade commissioner how she could continue her persistent promotion of the deal in the face of such massive public opposition, her response came back icy cold: “I do not take my mandate from the European people.”
Certainly without the British this kind of thing will likely be more pronounced but the British themselves are likely to negotiate their own version of TTIP anyway. This business of unrelenting free trade is a bit of a conundrum. It is good in that it allows poorer countries to gain access to wealthy markets but the other aspects where wages are pressurised-sometimes severely ,needs to be looked at. Clearly it suits the corporate class and it is helping the top 1% to gain ownership of increasing amounts of the worlds wealth so that the participating countries need to agree measures to counter that with international taxation law. This is where the USA and its favouratism towards the big corporations becomes a problem. It's going to take a long time I think.
 

drummed

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Oct 22, 2010
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A country like Ireland has very little power in the EU. Its Govts have to pick their fights with very little muscle behind them, so the big countries like Germany get to direct the EU project via the likes of Angela Merkel while countries like Ireland get their leaders heads patted condescendingly.

The German electorate gets listened to at EU level the electorates of smaller and poorer countries get to listen to the EU.
If you make up .05% of the population you get .05% of the say. That's surely democratic? To have more power would in fact be totally undemocratic would it not?
 

drummed

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Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
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Certainly without the British this kind of thing will likely be more pronounced but the British themselves are likely to negotiate their own version of TTIP anyway. This business of unrelenting free trade is a bit of a conundrum. It is good in that it allows poorer countries to gain access to wealthy markets but the other aspects where wages are pressurised-sometimes severely ,needs to be looked at. Clearly it suits the corporate class and it is helping the top 1% to gain ownership of increasing amounts of the worlds wealth so that the participating countries need to agree measures to counter that with international taxation law. This is where the USA and its favouratism towards the big corporations becomes a problem. It's going to take a long time I think.
The UK are the only major advocate of TTIP in the EU. Outside it they will sign the current deal no problem. France meanwhile has been very clear it will never allow the EU sign the current deal.
 

Ireniall

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Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
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A country like Ireland has very little power in the EU. Its Govts have to pick their fights with very little muscle behind them, so the big countries like Germany get to direct the EU project via the likes of Angela Merkel while countries like Ireland get their leaders heads patted condescendingly.

The German electorate gets listened to at EU level the electorates of smaller and poorer countries get to listen to the EU.
We may have very little power in the EU on our own but we can form alliances with like-minded countries and have some influence that way. Imagine how little power we'd have outside the EU.
 

GDPR

1
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Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,089
We elect those "national elites".
You elect some of them - and you have no control over who they will recommend as an EU Commissioner.

The people who propose legislation.

Now do you feel like responding to the rest of my post - you know where the meat was? Because otherwise you are wasting your time.
 

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