The Socialist Party are now an alternative - Questions regarding their manifesto

D

Duth Ealla

The socialist council in Liverpool created thousands of jobs, built thousands of badly needed houses, schools, leisure facilites etc and did it all while running the council more efficiently than any other council in Britain.

And yes the 90 days notice as a simple legal requirement and it was a mistaken tactic. But it wasn't the reason the councillors were disbarred - that was because they were surcharged for not setting a rate (something which the socialist councillors argued should be done and LP councillors in other parts of England went against).

But that wasn't even the general point I was making - working class people have demonstrated time and time again - even in the present day - that they can take a chronic situation created by the capitalist class and change it around to provide for the needs of people.

yeah but the lesson was without a level of critical mass across a wide area the SP could not sustain its changes. To be fair the SP did good for the people there but it didnt last because the SP does not have the ability to build tactically and dare I say it gradually.

I am not convinced that the SP could today handle it any better and I suspect anyone a member who were to even question your current strategy as a party would find their questions cooly recevied though thats only my gut feeling based on what I know of a few members.

I dont understand your second paragraph. and from what I do I can t see how it relates in anyway to the SP. Any such tendency for working class to do that may well be totally independent of the SP.
 


D

Duth Ealla

The Socialist Party knows exactly what the country should be doing and how to do it. What do you want to know - ?


Pre-budget submissions are not worth the paper they are written on - no one reads them except for a few lazy journalists looking to some easy copy. They are an excuse for holding a press conference and nothing more.

Given the difficulty of getting any half decent press coverage for anything that doesn't say 'we have no choice' the Socialist Party has to be, by necessity, selective and instead promoted the establishment of the United Left Alliance to fight the election.

Thats not acceptable as an answer MW. I read my party's submission and I aint no journo.

This is holding the SP back and exposing you to criticism as a party of not real policy.

Yet the difficulty is as the party gets bigger (maybe) and needs to develop more detailed policies as it begins to shape this state to its own model it will face at that stage all the issues anew. Basic policy issues that could have been worked out over a few years will now be developed quickly and under pressure.

Tensions will arise and the party will crack. There is a tendency amongst left parties to at this stage talk of sell outs and careerists but in reality the problem was the party ignored developing their own policices for as long as possible and when tensions arose due to the finer details being revealed it caused chaos. Chaos that could not be controlled.

As sure as day it will happen to the SP if you every get 5-6 TDs. No preparation will be made to counter this by agreeing the fine details now though as thats inimical to where you are now as a party. Unfortunately that stops you from going to where you want to be as a party.

All the best with your project. I just think you are your own worst enemies is all.
 

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
36,191
Do people realise Trotsky was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people?
And i mean a LOT. Quoting this deluded murderer is not a good omen, these kind of worker revolutions always turn out badly and in the end the workers benefit none. Stalin's numerous 4 year plans were'nt a notable success.
The workers also end up prisoners of an one party dictatorship. As for milaterism the Soviet union and North Korea as known for their peaceful ways. This is all fantasy stuff.
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
20,995
If everyone is certain of employment why will we need a social welfare payment?
If there is no unemployment than of course no unemployment payments will need to be made - bit of a stupid question there really.

What are all these people going to be doing?
there are a hell of a lot of things than need to be done in society to provide for the needs of working class people. Don't worry there is plenty of work to go around.

At 12 euros an hour they better be making gold plated Bently Mulsannes
And of course €12 an hour is what a banker get paid (remember the guys who got us into this mess).

How can we pay them in euro if we reject the capitalist europeans?
An awful lot of Europeans are rejecting the captialists - have a look as some of the European news channels (you won't see it on RTE or the Beeb).

Does this system work with democracy including the right of parties who oppose the workers paradise to exist?
Not trying to build a paradise - just a decent society - and yes (except for fascists).

Do we have free elections and press?
Well we don't have free elections or a free press at the moment - we have governments in the pockets of big business who frequent the Galay tent and most of the press in the hands of three very wealthy individuals. The Socialist Party would place the press under democratic public ownership with political parties receiving access according to their public support, workplaces, communities and sports organisations etc receiving access as necessary with elected representatives of all groups ensuring fair access for all.

Is forcing people to join trade unions if they wish not to discrimination?
Nope - workers interests are served by democratic trade unions. All individuals benefit from a strong democratic trade union movement and in order to ensure that it represents an entire workforce and community at large there is a responsibility for each worker to actively participate.

Who;s going to pay for all this?
There is more than enough wealth in Irish society to fully implement any measure the Socialist Party puts forward. But democratic socialist planning is not simply about a re-distribution of the existing wealth - but about wealth creation. A democratic socialist planned economy would create far greater wealth than capitalism could every achieve - and without the bubbles and subsequent crashes.

You have to address the practical issues if you want this to be taken seriously
And the more specific you make your questions the more concrete answers you will receive.
 

Clanrickard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
34,513
Do people realise Trotsky was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people?
And i mean a LOT. Quoting this deluded murderer is not a good omen, these kind of worker revolutions always turn out badly and in the end the workers benefit none. Stalin's numerous 4 year plans were'nt a notable success.
The workers also end up prisoners of an one party dictatorship. As for milaterism the Soviet union and North Korea as known for their peaceful ways. This is all fantasy stuff.
Correct. No sane person would vote for this shower of crack pots. The politics of spite and envy. The SP must be rejected at the ballot box or we will be worse off than we are now.
 

Luigi Vampa

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
3,225
Do people realise Trotsky was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people?
And i mean a LOT. Quoting this deluded murderer is not a good omen, these kind of worker revolutions always turn out badly and in the end the workers benefit none. Stalin's numerous 4 year plans were'nt a notable success.
The workers also end up prisoners of an one party dictatorship. As for milaterism the Soviet union and North Korea as known for their peaceful ways. This is all fantasy stuff.
Your comparison is like trying to compare all forms of capitalism with fascism.

You do understand that the Socialist Party in Ireland proposes Democratic Socialism ?
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
20,995
Hi, where does the United Left Alliance stand in regard to electoral reform and Direct Democracy and will it be fielding candidates in every seat?
The ULA will probably be running about 20 candidates in total in the next election (remember it has only existed for a week).

As for electoral reform - I can talk specifically about the Socialist Party -
1. All public representatives (including trade union officials) to be elected and subject to the right of immediate recall by those they represent.
2. All T.D.'s and ministers to be paied the average industrial wage and expenses only when fully vouched for and scrutinised.
3. Abolition of the Seanad and Presidency
4. Fully functioning democratic community and workplace organisations that facilitate the planning of the economy to provide for the needs of the population rather than the greed of the few.

Do you beleive ireland needs a massive public housing building campaign?
Hang on........is'nt that what got us here?
Yes it is - except it wasn't 'public' it was 'private' and it wasn't planned it was usurped.
 

ocoonassa

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
6,124
Correct. No sane person would vote for this shower of crack pots. The politics of spite and envy.
You'd want to be cracked to vote for any of the others either really. I'm interested what these people have to say about Direct Democracy, none of the others are on for it and so they're obvious subversives. I don't know about this faction though.
 

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
36,191
If there is no unemployment than of course no unemployment payments will need to be made - bit of a stupid question there really.


there are a hell of a lot of things than need to be done in society to provide for the needs of working class people. Don't worry there is plenty of work to go around.


And of course €12 an hour is what a banker get paid (remember the guys who got us into this mess).


An awful lot of Europeans are rejecting the captialists - have a look as some of the European news channels (you won't see it on RTE or the Beeb).


Not trying to build a paradise - just a decent society - and yes (except for fascists).


Well we don't have free elections or a free press at the moment - we have governments in the pockets of big business who frequent the Galay tent and most of the press in the hands of three very wealthy individuals. The Socialist Party would place the press under democratic public ownership with political parties receiving access according to their public support, workplaces, communities and sports organisations etc receiving access as necessary with elected representatives of all groups ensuring fair access for all.


Nope - workers interests are served by democratic trade unions. All individuals benefit from a strong democratic trade union movement and in order to ensure that it represents an entire workforce and community at large there is a responsibility for each worker to actively participate.


There is more than enough wealth in Irish society to fully implement any measure the Socialist Party puts forward. But democratic socialist planning is not simply about a re-distribution of the existing wealth - but about wealth creation. A democratic socialist planned economy would create far greater wealth than capitalism could every achieve - and without the bubbles and subsequent crashes.


And the more specific you make your questions the more concrete answers you will receive.
OK, fair answer as such, credit where it's due. Bit vague there on a few issues but no point in getting into the precise details (as your plans will never happen) but tell me this then. I own a farm, what happens that?
And...........Trotsky was an odious person, fact, responsible for much suffering and many deaths, his best known feature was a complete lack of empathy with anything or anyone except his own ego. I do think quoting him praising the joys of life is a bit much. It's sends out a bad message, he's no role model for anybody.
 

patrickofarrell

Active member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
144
Twitter
Farelyboy
The Socialist Party are a Marxist party i.e. a communist party.
a very common misconception about socialism. karl marx wrote the communist manifesto which has been interpreted by many including Lenin,Trotsky,stalin, castro,kim jong il to name but a few. the communism that enslaved eastern europe was the stalinist interpretation on socialism in one country. against this leni and trotsy and che guevarra were believers in world socialism that the working classes of all nation would unite and overthrow the capitalist yolk of oppression.stalinism failed because it concentrated power in one person,true socialism or communism is totally democratic and truly government of the people by the people for the people. marx wrote and believed that socialism was the next natural progression once capitalism had sounded its own death knell.we are living in massively changing times,whether we are living in the death throws of capitalism is another question altogether!
 

Kalan

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
172
outlook

The prospect before the workers of Ireland is a severely reduced standard of living so that the surplus they produce by their labour can be transferred to banks in Britain, Germany and France.
Irish citizens have no moral obligation to pay off those who foolishly loaned money to Seanie Fitzpatrick's casino, as even the Financial Times has stated a number of times. And a number of respected capitalist commentators, such as Mohamed El-Erian, have pointed out that this massive transfer of wealth to the bondholders is very bad economics, and are calling instead for a sharing of the burden between bondholders and taxpayers.
Ireland's long painful slog must begin with slow, steady steps - Telegraph

The ICTU and the Labour Party agree that the Irish economy should be organized to benefit finance capital rather than Irish citizens. They have abdicated their responsibility to those they purport to represent.
The current govt. is not so much a lame duck as a dead one. A real alternative is desperately needed.
 

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
36,191
Your comparison is like trying to compare all forms of capitalism with fascism.

You do understand that the Socialist Party in Ireland proposes Democratic Socialism ?
I do and i'm not trying to sink your boat but i beleive they have "elections" in north korea too. Does that make it democratic socialism?
That south Korean gunship probably hit an iceberg anyway.
 

Luigi Vampa

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
3,225
I do and i'm not trying to sink your boat but i beleive they have "elections" in north korea too. Does that make it democratic socialism?
That south Korean gunship probably hit an iceberg anyway.
The only people I see preventing democratic elections here are FF
 

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
36,191
The only people I see preventing democratic elections here are FF
True enough, but back meanwhile back at the farm.............what happens to my farm in a workers paradise?
 

Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,468
And of course €12 an hour is what a banker get paid (remember the guys who got us into this mess).
If everyone gets paid €12 per hour, how do expect those who can earn more to stay in Ireland? Would you forceably keep people in Ireland or would they be free to leave?


Well we don't have free elections or a free press at the moment
Please explian how our elections are "unfree", I have not seen any credible evidence to express that they are anything but? Is there any recognised international body who has expressed concerns with our electoral system?


The Socialist Party would place the press under democratic public ownership with political parties receiving access according to their public support, workplaces, communities and sports organisations etc receiving access as necessary with elected representatives of all groups ensuring fair access for all.
So therefore you mean that the Socialist party would Control the media and therefore the right to a free press would no longer exist? Why would you oppose a free press, would critisim of the Socialist Party be allowed? how would a new political party get coverage?

There is more than enough wealth in Irish society to fully implement any measure the Socialist Party puts forward. But democratic socialist planning is not simply about a re-distribution of the existing wealth - but about wealth creation. A democratic socialist planned economy would create far greater wealth than capitalism could every achieve - and without the bubbles and subsequent crashes.
Can you provide evidence of this?
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
20,995
but it didnt last because the SP does not have the ability to build tactically and dare I say it gradually.
And your evidence for this?

I suspect anyone a member who were to even question your current strategy as a party would find their questions cooly recevied
Go ahead and ask - and be as general or as specific as you like.

I dont understand your second paragraph. and from what I do I can t see how it relates in anyway to the SP. Any such tendency for working class to do that may well be totally independent of the SP.
You will have to clarify both of these for me as I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Thats not acceptable as an answer MW. I read my party's submission and I aint no journo.
I read your party's submission too - and I ain't no journo - I did it because I am politically active and I want to see the argument been made. But to be honest I could type up a more comprehensive document myself in a couple of hours without many of the flaws that I see in it.

This is holding the SP back and exposing you to criticism as a party of not real policy.
Why - because the Socialist Party doesn't conform to the 'normal' way of doing things in political circles.

I have spend many hours sitting in steering committee meetings for national bodies with members of all political parties (including SF) and all of them (including SF) went nuts because I wouldn't play the game the way they wanted it played.

I can assure you than not one single member of the general public will ahve read your submission - and know nothing about its content (like suggesting we should follow the French and Spanish governments) except for a few soundbites.

Yet the difficulty is as the party gets bigger (maybe) and needs to develop more detailed policies as it begins to shape this state to its own model it will face at that stage all the issues anew.
Let's be clear about something - the Socialist Party is not trying to shape this state in any way what-so-ever. The Socialist Party recognises that this state is a structure designed and maintained to preserve the rule of the capitalist class. The job of the Socialist Party is to help assist working class people defend their own interests and to become politically self-aware so that the working class as a whole can shape society in the interests of ordinary people. In order to do that the working class will have to remove capitalism and replace it with a democratic socialist society. The best analogy I can come up with at the moment is that the Scoialist Party is a conduit to facilitate the working class becoming politically active in defending it's class interests.

Basic policy issues that could have been worked out over a few years will now be developed quickly and under pressure.
Captialism hasn't changed all that much in the past 200 years - and the solution has been pretty well mapped out for the past 150.

Tensions will arise and the party will crack. There is a tendency amongst left parties to at this stage talk of sell outs and careerists
With all due respect - do you want me to list all the splits that have occurred in Sinn Fein since its foundation and all the sell-outs that have occurred because of careerists?

Since it's inception in 1973 the Socialist Party has never suffered a split of any kind - yes individuals have left the party - but that happens in every political organisation - but on the scale of what has happened in SF, we have an awful long way to go to et even close (and that doesn't even take into account the odd feud).

in reality the problem was the party ignored developing their own policices for as long as possible and when tensions arose due to the finer details being revealed it caused chaos.
Have you any comprehension of the dramatic shifts that have occurred in Sinn Fein policy and political position in the past 20 years?

All the best with your project. I just think you are your own worst enemies is all.
The Socialist Party is not a project - it is a necessity. As long as capitalism exists there will be a need for a socialist party - so it has nothing to do with any desire for political careers or anything else and everything to do with an understanding that society sucks and must be changed. Finally - we know who our enemies are and where to find them.
 

Luigi Vampa

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
3,225
True enough, but back meanwhile back at the farm.............what happens to my farm in a workers paradise?
As far as I know, the socialist party encourage small and medium businesses. E.g. it was posted on P.ie before that the socialist party member that designed their website owns his own business and employs 10 people. They are not interested in controlling ordinary peoples property and businesses. It’s the greed of billionaires, their corporations, and their negative effects on ordinary people they have a problem with.

Democratic socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
20,995
I own a farm, what happens that?
I could say 'what do you want to happen to it?' as again you are not being specific with your question. However, Irish agriculture is in the toilet. We are importing vast amounts of food that could be grown here and the entire agricultural sector is almost completely dependant on EU subsidies. furthermore the agricultural land is being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands as the remaining small farmers are been driven out. In contrast what should be happening is that a plan should be drawn up based on the agricultural needs of the country in terms of food, crops, animal feed etc. Farmers would then choose which aspect of the requirements they could fulfill and would be paid a guaranteed price for their produce.

The small number of large rancher farms would be placed under democratic public ownership and operated by farmers receiving a living wage, who were unable to generate sufficient income from their own holdings. These farmers would operate as industrial complexes (which is pretty much what is happening now) except that instead of all the profit going into the pocket of one person (or a corporation) it would be re-nvested in the farm to increase output, reduce prices and improve living standards for those working on them.

.Trotsky was an odious person, fact, responsible for much suffering and many deaths,
Trotsky demonstrated tremendous ability to organise an army from scratch that defeated a counter revolutionary army and 21 invading armies from all over the world. Was he ruthless - as much as any other commander in a war. Politically he was capable of outlining the developments that could lead to revolutuion in Russia and being the only one who did. After the civil war he waged an unending campaign against the rise of Stalinism. On a personal level, by all accounts he was difficult to get along with, possibly was arrogant and almost definitely didn't suffer fools lightly (don't know because I never met him) - but so what - his political contribution to socialism far outweighs any personality flaws he may have had.
 

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
36,191
Very good, that'll save me transferring it into a cow's name then. The farm i mean. Look i'm sure your well meaning, and good look with your plan, you have every right to your views. I do still have the problem with Mr Trotsky.
I don't beleive your on the right track. I opened to be convinced where we should be going.
 

Berty

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Messages
964
The answer is

- they wouldn't :oops:
From the current ************************e we are in, capitalism don't work at all.

Any bank that needs to be bailed out by the tax payer is indicative of the failure of the capitalist idea.

And in the pure capitalist arena there should not be a need for regulation, but we can see what happens when the finger is taken from the pulse.

As far as I see there should be a balance between capitalism and socialism but i don't think systems have evolved to that stage yet.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top Bottom