The Socialist Party are now an alternative - Questions regarding their manifesto

bormotello

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Sp is typical left wing populist party without clear answer where to get jobs for everybody
- A guaranteed right to a job or training with decent wages and full workers' rights
But it nice to see that lazy FF voters are drifting to SP direction
 


Catalpa

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Care to expand on any of them ?
No problem

- just as soon as they cost their proposals.

Let them set our an Alternative Budget like the other Parties and then we can 'tyre kick' them to see if they hold up

- or are just a lot of hot air.

Leo Varadkar publicly challenged the SP about this last Tuesday

- or stop Bluffing.

- and the answer he got was they wouldn't do that because 'Socialism' would not work like that!:rolleyes:

Go Figure
 

Catalpa

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I think that a democratic and ecological socialism is the only alternative to this whole mess the planet is in. I don't know if it will work but if we won't try we will never know.
Noble ideals my friend and we all want to make the World a better place with less greed and more fairness.

But the SP here or such like Parties anywhere else need to explain in detail who will pay for all this and where exactly this money is now to pay for it.

'Tax the Rich' is not enough - its just a slogan.

BTW I was in Berlin in June and its a lovely city!:)
 

Berliner

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I was in russia in the 80's, strange place. Food shortages were very real at the time. Food production started to collapse before the great war in 1914 and did'nt recover to those levels until the mid 1950's. They certainly made a mess of that considering the resources they had. I seem to remember the locals said stalin beleived communism was a nessesary stepping-stone to true socialism, the circumstances after 1917 would'nt allow immediate democracy.
Their still waiting i guess. It is an amazing country despite everything it's been through, fiercely proud. If they ever get their act together russian will be a force to be reckoned with. Anyway, the collective farms did'nt work out and the rural population were the socialist's toughest internal foe. I know,i'm rambling now.
In all fairness, nobody here is supporting or advocating the stalinist version of a socialism. Marx and Engels would spin in their graves seeing what was done in their names. There have been attempts to create a democratic socialism, one was put down by the soviets in Prague 1968 and the other in Chile 1973 by Pinochet and his CIA backers.
 

Berliner

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Noble ideals my friend and we all want to make the World a better place with less greed and more fairness.

But the SP here or such like Parties anywhere else need to explain in detail who will pay for all this and where exactly this money is now to pay for it.

'Tax the Rich' is not enough - its just a slogan.

BTW I was in Berlin in June and its a lovely city!:)
Berlin is great and we also have a leftwing city goverment here made up of the SPD and the Left Party. Contrary to their party programs they had to privatise and introduce social cuts. Its easy to proclaim a better world in opposition but in government its a different game. But this is due to the outer capitalist frame that keeps their hands tied behind their backs.
 
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sargito

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Its easy to proclaim a better world in opposition but in government its a different game.
Too true. But hasn't the last 60 years shown that these utopian/millenarian ideologies are doomed to failure , on both the left and the right?

socialism relies on domination as much as captialism does, only with ideology instead of capital.
New ideas people!
 

Luigi Vampa

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If you want democratically controlled work places then how could any of these policies work?
Properly run Co-op's - very successful, the whole community benefits.

France - has 1700 workers' co-operatives, with 36,000 people working in them. The average size of a co-operative is 21 employees.

Italy - The cooperative movement in Emilia-Romagna, Italy successfully melds two divergent philosophical currents: Socialism and Catholicism. With more than a century of cooperative history, the region includes more than 8,000 cooperatives.

Norway - The best known example of a Norwegian worker cooperative is the employee-owned IT company Kantega, which several times has been recognized as one of the 100 Best Workplaces in Europe.

Spain - One of the world's best known examples of worker cooperation is the Mondragón Cooperative Corporation in the Basque Country. At the end of 2009 it was providing employment for 85,066 people working in 256 companies in four areas of activity: Finance, Industry, Retail and Knowledge.

UK - The largest examples of a British worker cooperatives include Suma Wholefoods, Bristol based Essential Trading Co-operative and the retail giant John Lewis Partnership.

Argentina - In response to the economic crisis in Argentina, many Argentinian workers occupied the premises of bankrupt businesses and began to run them as worker-owned cooperatives. As of 2005, there were roughly 200 worker-owned businesses in Argentina, most of which were started in response to this crisis. The documentary film The Take is the best-known document in English about this phenomenon.

Worker cooperative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Berliner

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Too true. But hasn't the last 60 years shown that these utopian/millenarian ideologies are doomed to failure , on both the left and the right?

socialism relies on domination as much as captialism does, only with ideology instead of capital.
New ideas people!
Democratic socialism is the only way forward. Any changes to capitalism or trying to control it will always have characteristics of socialist politics. Socialism in the former east has failed as it was totalitarian and against individual freedom. The aim is to create a society where people do not exploid people and where everybody has not only political freedom but also social freedom. One country that came very close to that ideal is Sweden. Just because Stalinisms or Marxism-Leninism failed does not mean that socialism is off the table once and for all.

An new slogan of the german Left is:

Imagine is socialism and nobody wants to leave.

This slogan is in relation to the unattractive socialist model that was put over East-Germany by the Soviets and made miilions of people try to flee over the wall to West-Germany.
 

Harry700

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Clearly, we need something better than the current incompetent mob.

But, I am uncertain how the Socialist policies might financially impact my family & I. We own a private company employing less than 30 people. I have already reduced my own dividends from the company by 20% plus cut back on winter holidays, maids, private clubs etc because of the country's state. My point is we are all tightening our belt.

However, where does it stop & will the Socialists simply take it to breaking point by further penalising everyone ??

Harry

Thanks for putting up your thread - for information purposes - the details you outline are currently in the process of being updated (given the current situation with the IMF) and this should completed shortly - in the meantime I would suggest looking at this -
The socialist alternative to IMF/EU diktats | Socialist Party
 

sargito

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Democratic socialism is the only way forward.
Ideological domination like I said. Sweden was Social Democrat not Democratic Socialist, and wern't aiming for an ideal just a solution. it was the process not the end game that mattered.
 

Berliner

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Clearly, we need something better than the current incompetent mob.

But, I am uncertain how the Socialist policies might financially impact my family & I. We own a private company employing less than 30 people. I have already reduced my own dividends from the company by 20% plus cut back on winter holidays, maids, private clubs etc because of the country's state. My point is we are all tightening our belt.

However, where does it stop & will the Socialists simply take it to breaking point by further penalising everyone ??

Harry
I don't know how a society would look like if the Joe Higgings and his socialist party were in power as they are more trotzkyte than democratic socialists. My idea of a democratic socialism is that companies of your size should be supported and not penalised by the government. The crisis is a capitalist one and especially a financial capitalist one. I believe in the nationalisation of key industries and the banking sector. To put this sector under democratic control would prevent the gambling with all of our lifes. I am glad there are business of your size that create jobs but your enemy is not socialism but capitalism as it burns capital and destroys markets.
 

Berliner

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Ideological domination like I said. Sweden was Social Democrat not Democratic Socialist, and wern't aiming for an ideal just a solution. it was the process not the end game that mattered.
In Sweden and Germany the terms socialdemocratic and democratic socialist are interchangeable. The swedish as well as the german socialdemocratic party have the democratic socialism as aim in their party programs.
 

Luigi Vampa

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I cannot bring myself to vote for FF/FG/Labour, or SF.

I’m sick of civil war politics and plutocracy.

If pushed I will vote SF, but their fellow travellers, and their republicanism, and all the mock patriotism that inevitably goes with that worries me.

I don’t think a vote for smaller parties is a wasted vote, if they get three or four TD’s they can have a counterbalancing influence, and we need political diversity in this country so badly.

Here are my honest queries regarding the Socialist Party and their manifesto / policy :


- For a minimum wage of €12 an hour tax free with no exemptions.
I can’t see how this can be done in practical terms. Small business, or even worker co-op’s could not afford this pay rate, they could not compete, and Ireland could not hope to attract any international investment with this wage rate. I’m not saying Ireland should lower its wage to compete with eastern Europe, but it has to be competitive in western Europe. [/quote]

- For a 35 hour week without loss of pay.
I can see the logic of this, but again unless the rest of Europe was doing this, we could not compete

- For a decent social welfare payment, linked to average earnings.
At the moment we have at least 100,000 spongers on the dole that should not be there, and who contribute nothing. Raising their dole payments to about 35k a year, how could this be funded ? Also should they not be required to carry out work in the community instead being paid by the state to sit at home ?

- Free childcare for all.

- For a free public national health service. No to private health care.

- Free, quality education for all from primary to university, with a living grant.
Again how could this be funded, please give some hard detailed facts and examples, not vague aspirational statements.
- All publicly owned services and companies to be run under democratic working class control.
How would you ensure that these provide efficient and cost effective services, not just doss houses to hide social welfare recipients ?

- For the right to asylum and the scrapping of racist anti-asylum and immigration laws. For the right to work, with full protection, for immigrant workers.
Genuine asylum seekers, no problem, but How would you ensure that we were not swamped by economic migrants from other countries seeking refuge from poorer economies ?

- Take all major industry, banks and financial institutions into public ownership and place them under the democratic control and management of working class people.
Again how could this be funded and achieved, please give some hard detailed facts and examples, not vague aspirational statements.

Shut down Anglo Irish Bank
The bank should be closed down immediately and the losses should be taken by bondholders, private banks who lent to Anglo and wealthy depositors. The same applies to the Irish Nationwide Building Society.
Again, how could this be achieved in practical terms, how can the debts that were wrongly nationalised in Sept. 2008 be privatised again ?
all mortgages should be brought in line with current house valuations
How could this be done in practical terms ?


33,000 Irish millionaires own €133 billion wealth. The taxation system should be changed, not by bringing the lowest paid into the tax net, but by forcing this elite to pay their fair share.
How will you avoid a wealth exodus ?
finishing “ghost estates” to tackle massive social housing waiting lists. Instead of bailing out banks use state funding and state industry to end unemployment.
How would you fund this. Also, most of these estates are of extremely low quality construction and do not comply with their planning conditions or comply with building regulations. How would you propose to remedy this ?

--

Lastly – What is the SP’s official policy with regard to abortion, Gay marriage, and Gay adoption ?
 

Berliner

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The irish labour party on their website:

What Labour stands for » Who we are » The Labour Party


The four principles on which Socialism is based are Freedom, Equality, Community and Democracy.

From its first election programme in 1920 to the present day, these principles have been at the centre of the policies which the Labour Party has offered to the Irish people. These are the values which have ruled our major campaigns and our political activity whether in opposition or in Government.

The Labour Party is committed to representing the ideals of our movement in Government and ultimately we aim to be the majority party in Dail Eireann.

Freedom
Freedom is a fundamental human right. No society is free unless the men and women who make up that society are free individuals. Poverty, homelessness, unemployment and ignorance are the enemies of freedom. Labour extends the same freedom to all members of society and opposes the victimisation of individuals on the basis of class, colour, creed, religion, sex, sexual orientation, race or ethnic origin.

Equality
Equality implies reorganising society with the specific object of creating a more equal distribution of wealth and power, and not just opportunities for individuals to become powerful or wealthy. The Labour Party sees equality not only in economic terms but also in terms of social political and economic rights. It is necessary for the individual to enjoy these rights under the law if there is to be full and true equality.

Community
Socialism realises that men and women by necessity and by choice live in co-operation with each other. In the community or the workplace, the trade union or the social club there is a common sense of belonging and of purpose. The spirit of Community places Labour on the side of the oppressed, not only in Ireland but also in all countries of the world and in particular in the Third World.

Democracy
Democracy is fundamental to the concept of giving power to people to shape their own lives. This empowering of people should cover all aspects of life, including culture, politics, justice and the workplace.
 

sargito

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They are mutually exclusive terms, if you are proposing more SD then forget it, the middle path leads in the same direction. I imagine the PDS would be none to pleased the SPD stole their terms of reference , but then nothing is below the belt in politics!
 
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Luigi Vampa

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The Socialist Party is a small party with very limited resources. It is vital that we use those resources to the best possible advantage. At the moment that is by concentrating on trying to win seats in Dublin West with Joe Higgins, Dublin North with Clare Daly and Cork North Central with Mick Barry - and also trying to build our base in the other three or four areas we will stand. Hopefully, by the time the next general election comes along (and it could be a lot sooner than people think) the Socialist Party will be in a position to run a lot more candidates.
This is not good enough. You can still achieve much with limited resources. Concentrating on just a few constituencies is like admitting the rest don’t matter - not good enough at all. This attitude is going to leave you as an irrelevant, inverted snob, urban micro party for ever. Do rural voters not matter ? Do the working class only exist in urban areas ? Very patronising to concentrate on urban areas only.

The SP has a once in a generation opportunity right now to get candidates in every constituency in Ireland.

Look at the coverage the shoe-string independent candidates got in Donegal SW.

The SP have no excuse for not having a candidate in Donegal SW. Look at the national coverage SP policies would have achieved : Vincent Browne, frontline, RTE news, etc. etc. - Massive failing by the SP there. Very disappointing.
 

Berliner

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They are mutually exclusive terms, if you are proposing more SD then forget it, the middle path leads in the same direction.
The problem with the current labour (socialdemocratic) parties is that they are not radical enough in transforming this capitalist society. Many of the socialdemocratic parties were infect with neoliberalism over the last 10 years. Its time to go back to the roots and create a society that is democratic, social and ecological.
 

Blissett

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i was in cork city today an the socialist party were campaigning on the street and their city councilor was marching solidarity with pensioners. no other politician of any hue was present. i was very impressed by the demo and the solidarity shown. there is more of this required in ireland.all people,workers,unemployed,youth and pensioners need to come out in solidarity and show this disgrace to democracy of a government and opposition that they are all useless.very angry with political system in ireland designed to keep smaller political ideals and philosophies at bay1
Afraid thats not correct mate, a number of representatives of other parties were there (cllrs Thomas Gould and Jonathan O'Brien for one)

They are an excuse for holding a press conference and nothing more.
Indeed. The Socialist party being noted for being averse to press conferences.
 

Harry700

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Entirely agree with you Berliner about the banking sector (also jail the top crooks !).

My reduction in company dividend drawdown comprises 70,000 euro. I just wonder how the left wing radicals would cope with such a severe cutback to their lifestyle plus the other sacrifices we have endured !!!!

Harry

I don't know how a society would look like if the Joe Higgings and his socialist party were in power as they are more trotzkyte than democratic socialists. My idea of a democratic socialism is that companies of your size should be supported and not penalised by the government. The crisis is a capitalist one and especially a financial capitalist one. I believe in the nationalisation of key industries and the banking sector. To put this sector under democratic control would prevent the gambling with all of our lifes. I am glad there are business of your size that create jobs but your enemy is not socialism but capitalism as it burns capital and destroys markets.
 

sargito

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That is millenarian. We need to grow as a society not creat a new one, we have a society just not a participatory one. An ecological ideal is domination of ideology,the whole speaks for the individual no matter what.
 


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