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The Socialist Party/CWI's connections with the UVF.


SevenStars

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
4,232
Militant Labour was one their incarnations....

Bare this in mind when you go to the polling booth thinking of voting for Joe Higgins!
 


SevenStars

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
4,232
"Militant's position on Ireland is, if anything, more pro-imperialist
than ever. Which other group on the left would have the front to
argue, as leading members of Militant did at the founding conference
of the YRE, that it could not be seen to call for troops out of
Ireland for fear of disrupting their work among protestant youth in
Scotland! Militant's Irish group is a perfect mirror of British
partition, with the northern paper trimmed to the prejudices of
loyalist workers and youth in their 'even-handed' condemnations of
'sectarianism'. Most disgustingly, Militant has given 'socialist'
credentials to Billy Hutchinson's PUP - the political arm of the UVF
death squads. The equation of reactionary Loyalism with progressive
nationalism - while simultaneously leaning towards the former - is a
measure of Militant's relationship to the trade union bureaucracy in
both Ireland and Britain, and ultimately to the British capitalist
state.
Similarly their support for objectively pro imperialist 'peace
movements' and the Major-Reynolds proposals - they argue that it is
they and not the imperialists who really want peace - capitulates to
imperialism's ideological offensive, and fails to provide any genuine
socialist alternative to republicanism."

http://www.kmf.org/malecki/cockroach/cr0036-3.txt
 

DJP

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Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
12,443
One of them told me that they do not have an article in Irish in their monthly paper like SF do in their weekly because it came up as being a problem to some northern SP members. I would say f*** them. Irish is not an exclusive language to SF (I am surprised that I have to say this when talking about or to unionists) and the SP would be showing this by having one. Joe Higgins is a native Irish speaker. I understand in the circumstances that some northern SP members would complain but I thought the SP were all about creating good circumstances for diversity and socialism to grow?
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,262
This is plain silly I'm afraid.
The CWI engage in a public debate will Billy Hutchinson and SS goes off on a rant about the CWI being associated with the UVF.

SS it might be more in your line to explain why you praise a party, the Communist Party of Ireland (ML) who were cheerleaders for the UWC strike.
 

making waves

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Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,262
One of them told me that they do not have an article in Irish in their monthly paper like SF do in their weekly because it came up as being a problem to some northern SP members. I would say f*** them. Irish is not an exclusive language to SF (I am surprised that I have to say this when talking about or to unionists) and the SP would be showing this by having one. Joe Higgins is a native Irish speaker. I understand in the circumstances that some northern SP members would complain but I thought the SP were all about creating good circumstances for diversity and socialism to grow?
More bullish*t - the Socialist Party regularly issues press statements in Irish. Joe Higgins regularly speaks in Irish in the EU parliament and carries Irish articles on his website. And no - there has never been a complaint from a member of the Socialist Party in the North about using Irish.
 

Cael

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Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
The CWI engage in a public debate will Billy Hutchinson and SS goes off on a rant about the CWI being associated with the UVF.

SS it might be more in your line to explain why you praise a party, the Communist Party of Ireland (ML) who were cheerleaders for the UWC strike.
I really dont want to get into this debate, but Id like to ask one question. The SP put out a statement condemning RSF for attending a conference in Italy on anti-imperialism, that was also attended by certain people with far right connections. Given that the SP is willing to meet with sectarian gangs, and attend the European Parliament along with far right politicians, what was the point in condemning RSF? Was that not hypocracy?
 

Republican-Socialist

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
987
I really dont want to get into this debate, but Id like to ask one question. The SP put out a statement condemning RSF for attending a conference in Italy on anti-imperialism, that was also attended by certain people with far right connections. Given that the SP is willing to meet with sectarian gangs, and attend the European Parliament along with far right politicians, what was the point in condemning RSF? Was that not hypocracy?
It is indeed Cael. And the worst thing about Hutchinson is that this double sectarian murdered remained totally unapologetic about these murders, yet the SP presented him as some sort of representative of the protestant working class. At the same time as meeting with such sectarian scumbags, the SP have the temerity to lambast republicans in their paper for protesting a Royal Irish Regiment march in Ireland! Yes, you heard it hear first, it's ok to pander to the PUP/UVF including sectarian killers, but protesting against an imperialist army carrying out atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan and which continues to occupy Ireland is 'sectarian'. Their branch in Cork are some lot too, at a branch meeting before they toyed with the idea of approaching disaffected DUP members to join the SP.
 

making waves

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Messages
19,262
I really dont want to get into this debate, but Id like to ask one question. The SP put out a statement condemning RSF for attending a conference in Italy on anti-imperialism, that was also attended by certain people with far right connections. Given that the SP is willing to meet with sectarian gangs, and attend the European Parliament along with far right politicians, what was the point in condemning RSF? Was that not hypocracy?
The Socialist Party engaged in public debate with a member of the PUP. During this debate the Socialist Party criticised the previous actions and politics of the UVF. The debate was not a cozy up to the PUP - it was a full frank and honest debate with the PUP and when it was over we went our separate ways. In exactly the same way Socialist Party representatives have debated in the past with individuals from a republican paramilitary background.

I have addressed the issue of the Socialist Party's participation in the European parliament before - your assertion is nonsense.

The Socialist Party has never shared a platform with a fascist nor has it ever participated in a political event with a fascist organisation.

Finally, a leading member of RSF willingly participated in a conference with Fascists in Italy and was rightly criticised for doing so.
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
33
It is indeed Cael. And the worst thing about Hutchinson is that this double sectarian murdered remained totally unapologetic about these murders, yet the SP presented him as some sort of representative of the protestant working class. At the same time as meeting with such sectarian scumbags, the SP have the temerity to lambast republicans in their paper for protesting a Royal Irish Regiment march in Ireland! Yes, you heard it hear first, it's ok to pander to the PUP/UVF including sectarian killers, but protesting against an imperialist army carrying out atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan and which continues to occupy Ireland is 'sectarian'. Their branch in Cork are some lot too, at a branch meeting before they toyed with the idea of approaching disaffected DUP members to join the SP.
I am glad you know the inner workings of our branch meetings here in cork, do you regularly attend?
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
33
"Militant's position on Ireland is, if anything, more pro-imperialist
than ever. Which other group on the left would have the front to
argue, as leading members of Militant did at the founding conference
of the YRE, that it could not be seen to call for troops out of
Ireland for fear of disrupting their work among protestant youth in
Scotland! Militant's Irish group is a perfect mirror of British
partition, with the northern paper trimmed to the prejudices of
loyalist workers and youth in their 'even-handed' condemnations of
'sectarianism'. Most disgustingly, Militant has given 'socialist'
credentials to Billy Hutchinson's PUP - the political arm of the UVF
death squads. The equation of reactionary Loyalism with progressive
nationalism - while simultaneously leaning towards the former - is a
measure of Militant's relationship to the trade union bureaucracy in
both Ireland and Britain, and ultimately to the British capitalist
state.
Similarly their support for objectively pro imperialist 'peace
movements' and the Major-Reynolds proposals - they argue that it is
they and not the imperialists who really want peace - capitulates to
imperialism's ideological offensive, and fails to provide any genuine
socialist alternative to republicanism."

http://www.kmf.org/malecki/cockroach/cr0036-3.txt
How having a debate shows our support for UVF etc is beyond me? I am lost here...this thread is just silly
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
How having a debate shows our support for UVF etc is beyond me? I am lost here...this thread is just silly
So why did the SP put out a statement condemning RSF for having a debate?
 

making waves

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Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,262
the SP have the temerity to lambast republicans in their paper for protesting a Royal Irish Regiment march in Ireland! Yes, but protesting against an imperialist army carrying out atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan and which continues to occupy Ireland is 'sectarian'.
the protest against the RIR had nothing to do with opposing the war in Iraq and everything to do with dissident republicans attempting to outflank Sinn Fein in a blatantly nationalistic fashion.
 

Cael

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Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
The Socialist Party has never shared a platform with a fascist nor has it ever participated in a political event with a fascist organisation.
The UVF are fascists, and the European Parliament is packed with fascists. Doesnt the BNP have two seats there.
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
the protest against the RIR had nothing to do with opposing the war in Iraq and everything to do with dissident republicans attempting to outflank Sinn Fein in a blatantly nationalistic fashion.
Thats simply not true. What you call "dissident republicans," in a rather slavish repetition of British propaganda speak, are passionately opposed to imperialism in any part of the world. And dont forget, that British soldiers marching in Ireland is just as imperialistic as the war on Iraq.
 

SevenStars

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Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
4,232
. At the same time as meeting with such sectarian scumbags, the SP have the temerity to lambast republicans in their paper for protesting a Royal Irish Regiment march in Ireland! .
Not only that but they defended the right of Loyalist bands with images of sectarian killers to march through Ardoyne and than turned around and labelled the youth of Ardoyne resisting their community being put under martial law so those scum could troll it.

There will be more to come on this.
 

SevenStars

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
4,232
The CWI engage in a public debate will Billy Hutchinson and SS goes off on a rant about the CWI being associated with the UVF.

SS it might be more in your line to explain why you praise a party, the Communist Party of Ireland (ML) who were cheerleaders for the UWC strike.
I would have been about 11 or 12 or less than that when the CPI-ML broke up. I do like a lot of their writings though.

Can you show any evidence of the MLPD having any truck with loyalism? Thanks.

And you have shared a platform with a fascist....Billy Hutchinson.
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
33
Not disputing what I said then :)
Well no not necessarily, I do not lie to pretend I attend every branch meeting that goes on, though in every branch meeting I have been to I have never heard this even mentioned and while talking to fellow Comrades not just in my branch I have never heard anything of this coming up in Conversation, I would like to know where you got this 'information' from.
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,262
The UVF are fascists, and the European Parliament is packed with fascists. Doesnt the BNP have two seats there.
The UVF were/are a right wing sectarian paramilitary organisation. The Socialist Party did not engage with the UVF but with a representative of the PUP who had shifted his political position to a significant degree at the time.

I will repeat this again- if you are going to criticise the Socialist Party for taking it seat in the EU parliament and using it's position there to attack Fascists - then you must also condemn Lenin for instructing the Bolsheviks to participate in the Duma when it was dominated by Fascists.

RSF willingly and consciously participated in an event with Fascists.
 

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