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The solution to our problems IS a Constitution day.


corelli

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Jun 13, 2007
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4,478
I And, no, I do not mean the bull************************/nebulous one FG included in their manifesto, well intended as it was. I mean a reality based one that would sort, for once and forever, the varying and glaring anomalies in our system and the ones that cause many so much annoyance. The ones where the Government plead “constitutional difficulties” as an excuse for the same old policies. I should admit, for those who don’t know, that I am a Government supporter, albeit a rather pissed off one.

1. An amendment that would end, for once and for all, and notwithstanding any other constitutional provision, or contractual arrangement, the practice of future or existing upward only rent reviews.
2. An amendment that would preclude, during the course of Banks reliance on Government, from any banker receiving, notwithstanding any other constitutional or contractual arrangement, any remuneration in excess of the Government cap. I am not a communist and accept that in times of private bank profitability they should pay their executives anything they so wish, subject to shareholder approval.
3. A constitutional amendment providing for a civil court of appeal.
4. A constitutional amendment providing for the remuneration of any former office holder, paid directly from the public purse, not to exceed, no matter whatever provision previously applied, 100k.
5. A constitutional amendment providing that no serving office holder, or public servant, paid directly from the public purse, during a time of fiscal deficit, should be paid in excess of the Taoiseach. Such salary to be, in any event, no more than 150k.

This is only the tip of the iceberg and there are a number of issues, financial related, that could also be dealt with. However, these would prove a good start and ensure some measure of trust and credibility in the Government.
Has anyone any other ideas? Please reserve them to fiscal issues, if you could.

I should also say that, obviously, this is not a panacea for all our ills, but a bloody good first start, in terms of repairing the disconnect as between the people and the body politic.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Bumble

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Sep 7, 2010
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18,254
But but but we have to pay bankers 500k+ or nobody will take the job.
 

borntorum

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May 26, 2008
Messages
12,805
How can you put specific fiscal limits in the Constitution? Are we going to have to have continual referenda to account for inflation?
 

LamportsEdge

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Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
But but but we have to pay bankers 500k+ or nobody will take the job.
Mm. And then where would we be only the same place we are now. And that would be teddible, Ted. Simply teddible.

Good OP and I would add my voice to calls for a constitution day and also abhor this utterly nonsensical farce of a constitutional assembly stacked with one third a set of 'no change' merchants currently planned or underway or whatever.
 

Silentmajority

Active member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
208
I And, no, I do not mean the bull************************/nebulous one FG included in their manifesto, well intended as it was. I mean a reality based one that would sort, for once and forever, the varying and glaring anomalies in our system and the ones that cause many so much annoyance. The ones where the Government plead “constitutional difficulties” as an excuse for the same old policies. I should admit, for those who don’t know, that I am a Government supporter, albeit a rather pissed off one.

1. An amendment that would end, for once and for all, and notwithstanding any other constitutional provision, or contractual arrangement, the practice of future or existing upward only rent reviews.
2. An amendment that would preclude, during the course of Banks reliance on Government, from any banker receiving, notwithstanding any other constitutional or contractual arrangement, any remuneration in excess of the Government cap. I am not a communist and accept that in times of private bank profitability they should pay their executives anything they so wish, subject to shareholder approval.
3. A constitutional amendment providing for a civil court of appeal.
4. A constitutional amendment providing for the remuneration of any former office holder, paid directly from the public purse, not to exceed, no matter whatever provision previously applied, 100k.
5. A constitutional amendment providing that no serving office holder, or public servant, paid directly from the public purse, during a time of fiscal deficit, should be paid in excess of the Taoiseach. Such salary to be, in any event, no more than 150k.

This is only the tip of the iceberg and there are a number of issues, financial related, that could also be dealt with. However, these would prove a good start and ensure some measure of trust and credibility in the Government.
Has anyone any other ideas? Please reserve them to fiscal issues, if you could.

I should also say that, obviously, this is not a panacea for all our ills, but a bloody good first start, in terms of repairing the disconnect as between the people and the body politic.
The fundamental idea may well have merit
Some of your suggested amendments definitely have merit.
I would disagree strongly with amendment 5.

The State must have access to certain individuals who possess readily marketable skills and expertise which command a market value, even in the recession of greater than €150k, I would suggest you look at the people we had to hire in to beef up the Financial Regulator \ Central Bank. Mathew Elderfield comes to mind, they are not career Irish Civil Servants with jobs for life and CS pensions, a one size fits all salary cap would make it impossible to recruit such skills.

Similarly in Revenue there would be a significant expertise that the market would pay a premium for, take those who broke the "Schroders Ready Made 26" scam for example, if there max salary was capped at €150k or leave for potential full partnership in say PWC, KPMG etc?

What about consultant Docs? they going to be capped ? how do you prevent a brain drain?
 

corelli

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Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
4,478
How can you put specific fiscal limits in the Constitution? Are we going to have to have continual referenda to account for inflation?
No, as I said, as long as we run a fiscal deficit the limit applies, and of course, that limit is to be decided. I just put in a reasonable figure. If were are in surplus, that is a matter for Government setting pay limits, as appropriate.

Some scandanavian countries have a rule that no Government financed agency can pay in excess of the Prime Ministers salary and any overpayment thereto comes off the relevent agencies grant in aid.
 

corelli

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Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
4,478
The fundamental idea may well have merit
Some of your suggested amendments definitely have merit.
I would disagree strongly with amendment 5.

The State must have access to certain individuals who possess readily marketable skills and expertise which command a market value, even in the recession of greater than €150k, I would suggest you look at the people we had to hire in to beef up the Financial Regulator \ Central Bank. Mathew Elderfield comes to mind, they are not career Irish Civil Servants with jobs for life and CS pensions, a one size fits all salary cap would make it impossible to recruit such skills.

Similarly in Revenue there would be a significant expertise that the market would pay a premium for, take those who broke the "Schroders Ready Made 26" scam for example, if there max salary was capped at €150k or leave for potential full partnership in say PWC, KPMG etc?

What about consultant Docs? they going to be capped ? how do you prevent a brain drain?
New consultant contracts, without any element of private practice, is presently much less than 150k and they have filled all but 21 of the 160 new places. I am not sure that particular argument has merit.
 

Ribeye

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Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
How can you put specific fiscal limits in the Constitution? Are we going to have to have continual referenda to account for inflation?
And we're not gonna be using the Euro for much longer,

Corelli is trying to patch up a house that's falling apart coz it was built on pyrite foundations,

There is only one real solution, knock it down and build a new house,

And make sure that we get rid of the rodent problem while we're at it,

Gimme a call when you're ready to start work, I'm a surgeon with a sledge,
 

Mitsui2

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Nov 13, 2009
Messages
33,382
..this is not a panacea for all our ills, but a bloody good first start, in terms of repairing the disconnect as between the people and the body politic.
+100

I reckon myself that this disconnect, and the - quite understandably - growing mistrust in government per se that's resulting from it, are if anything far more dangerous for the country's future than any merely financial problems. But redressing such examples of blatant financial craziness as you cite would go some way towards easing people's cynicism and (if it's not too extreme a word) rage.
 

Analyzer

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Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
We elect politicians to do these things. And they are not doing them.

In fact they are consistently lying to the people before the get elected, and ignoring the people after they get elected.

Maybe just an amendment enabling direct recall of failing ministers (Dicey springs immediately to mind) would be the best course of action.
 

Ribeye

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Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
No, as I said, as long as we run a fiscal deficit the limit applies, and of course, that limit is to be decided. I just put in a reasonable figure. If were are in surplus, that is a matter for Government setting pay limits, as appropriate.

Some scandanavian countries have a rule that no Government financed agency can pay in excess of the Prime Ministers salary and any overpayment thereto comes off the relevent agencies grant in aid.
He was referring to the numerical amounts:)
 

blokesbloke

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Jan 13, 2011
Messages
23,296
There is no civil court of appeal in Ireland?
 

Mitsui2

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And we're not gonna be using the Euro for much longer,

Corelli is trying to patch up a house that's falling apart coz it was built on pyrite foundations,

There is only one real solution, knock it down and build a new house,

And make sure that we get rid of the rodent problem while we're at it,

Gimme a call when you're ready to start work, I'm a surgeon with a sledge,
:)

I'd tend to agree with both you and Corelli, Rib, depending on my mood. But in the meantime there's a lot of folks living in the house, who'll still need a roof over their heads in the interval between demolition and construction.
 

blokesbloke

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Jan 13, 2011
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23,296
I don't understand upward-only rent reviews. Why does the Constitution require them?
 

LamportsEdge

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Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
The fundamental idea may well have merit
Some of your suggested amendments definitely have merit.
I would disagree strongly with amendment 5.

The State must have access to certain individuals who possess readily marketable skills and expertise which command a market value, even in the recession of greater than €150k, I would suggest you look at the people we had to hire in to beef up the Financial Regulator \ Central Bank. Mathew Elderfield comes to mind, they are not career Irish Civil Servants with jobs for life and CS pensions, a one size fits all salary cap would make it impossible to recruit such skills.

Similarly in Revenue there would be a significant expertise that the market would pay a premium for, take those who broke the "Schroders Ready Made 26" scam for example, if there max salary was capped at €150k or leave for potential full partnership in say PWC, KPMG etc?

What about consultant Docs? they going to be capped ? how do you prevent a brain drain?
Firstly there is no evidence at all that Ireland had a brains trust at its disposal in the recent crisis so this notion that the Irish civil service has a reserve of eager up-to-date go getters is and was a nonsense. In fact the moment the crisis hit there was a flurry of bought in expertise from the private sector which rather proves my point. Sir Dead did not have independent expertise in his department to call on as we can readily see from the way he flailed around from outside consultancies to tax-exile 'wealth creators' and bizarrely enough turning up at economists' doorsteps in the middle of the night chewing garlic.

We have already had a 'brain drain'. We always have a 'brain drain' because to put it bluntly unless prevented by existing commitments from leaving Ireland in its current state the brains aren't going to hang around on the dole.
 

corelli

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Jun 13, 2007
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There is no civil court of appeal in Ireland?
No, there is not. You go from the High Court to the Supreme Court with no stop inbetween. There are YEARS of delay trying to get a civil case on before the Supreme Court, with all the resultant business difficulties. It's a nightmare, and one, I believe, the Government plan to deal with later in the year.
 

Mitsui2

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Nov 13, 2009
Messages
33,382
We elect politicians to do these things. And they are not doing them.

In fact they are consistently lying to the people before the get elected, and ignoring the people after they get elected.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
 

Analyzer

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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
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I don't understand upward-only rent reviews. Why does the Constitution require them?
How could they mandated by the constitution ? This is an issue for the legislature.

It seems to me that we have footdragging going on to make NAMA look good, and to make the banks look solvent.

I also can't understand why tenants don't just walk out of Grafton Street and set up shop in Ballymount Industrial estate or some suburban shopping complex.

There are loads of empty shop units in Dun Laoghaire, and a large proportio of the customers of the expensive shops in town live in SE Dublin anyway.
 

blokesbloke

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How could they mandated by the constitution ? This is an issue for the legislature.

It seems to me that we have footdragging going on to make NAMA look good, and to make the banks look solvent.

I also can't understand why tenants don't just walk out of Grafton Street and set up shop in Ballymount Industrial estate or some suburban shopping complex.

There are loads of empty shop units in Dun Laoghaire, and a large proportio of the customers of the expensive shops in town live in SE Dublin anyway.
It might not be, it's just every time I've seen it discussed on P.ie it's been suggested that legislation to deal with them would face constitutional problems - I may have misunderstood.
 

blokesbloke

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Jan 13, 2011
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No, there is not. You go from the High Court to the Supreme Court with no stop inbetween. There are YEARS of delay trying to get a civil case on before the Supreme Court, with all the resultant business difficulties. It's a nightmare, and one, I believe, the Government plan to deal with later in the year.
Ah, I see.

I've never fully understood the whole court appeal system TBH. I understand you get your initial judgment from the regular court and then yes you can appeal to an appelate court, but then if you are unhappy still you can then go to the Supreme Court.

The appelate court stage always just seemed to clog up the system itself a bit to me. I can see how it would take a long time to go straight to the Supreme Court, but if you can still appeal Court of Appeal decisions, then doesn't it just add in another stage without it necessarily being resolved?
 
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