The 'sovereign' question.

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,369
Has our sovereignty this last 88 years resided in the people, or merely in institutions defined by the party Devalera created in his own image?

Sovereign: not controlled by outside forces.

Have we been a sovereign people? Or has our sovereignty lain only in Fianna Fail and the people that the Fianna Fail party either bought off or bamboozled? It seems to me that FF regards the people in general who they have not bought off or bamboozled, as 'outside forces'.

"It's been a very hard-won sovereignty for this country and this government is not going to give over that sovereignty to anyone," Batt O'Keefe, minister of enterprise, trade and innovation, told national broadcaster RTE on Sunday.

Batt, I think you mean that it's been a very hard-won sovereignty for your own political party. - Your party is not the country.
 
Last edited:


Goodbody

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,481
Has our sovereignty this last 88 years resided in the people, or merely in institutions defined by the party Devalera created?
It has resided in the people. Unfortunately, the people weren't up to the responsibility.
 

flavirostris

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
24,570
I think when FF speak of the country, they generally mean themselves.

Saving the party is the same thing as saving the country
 

consultant

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
1,010
Has our sovereignty this last 88 years resided in the people, or merely in institutions defined by the party Devalera created in his own image?

Sovereign: not controlled by outside forces.

Have we been a sovereign people? Or has our sovereignty lain only in Fianna Fail and the people that the Fianna Fail party either bought off or bamboozled? It seems to me that FF regards the people in general who they have not bought off or bamboozled, as 'outside forces'.

"It's been a very hard-won sovereignty for this country and this government is not going to give over that sovereignty to anyone," Batt O'Keefe, minister of enterprise, trade and innovation, told national broadcaster RTE on Sunday.

Batt, I think you mean that it's been a very hard-won sovereignty for your own political party. - Your party is not the country.

Good question.

Fianna Fail has always described itself as the 'Republican' party and Bertie, infamously, described himself as 'a true Socialist'. Both descriptions consistent with the combined ideals of the 1916 leaders.

Unfortunately, what FF is today is a far cry from those ideals and traditions. It is a far cry from a party dedicated to proud governance and leadership of a developed people.

Fianna Fail has become a junta-like entity that exists to satisfy the wants of its core "aristocracy" and to a lesser degree, its faithful party lap-dogs. It uses and abuses the people who elect (and those who don't) them in the apparent belief it is their right, their heritage. They lie to, deceive and in effect, defraud those to whom they should be responsible.

Sovereignty to Fianna Fail is acceptance of their 'right' to take and squander the riches of the state.

It has nothing to do with the general populace.
 

Goodbody

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,481
Sovereignty to Fianna Fail is acceptance of their 'right' to take and squander the riches of the state.

It has nothing to do with the general populace.
Do you think that the general populace of this island is some enlightened force for the greater good, just waiting to be set free from its Fianna Fail clutches?

I don't. I think it's a bunch of narrow minded bigots who only look out for themselves and their own.
 

consultant

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
1,010
Do you think that the general populace of this island is some enlightened force for the greater good, just waiting to be set free from its Fianna Fail clutches?

I don't. I think it's a bunch of narrow minded bigots who only look out for themselves and their own.

In other words, FF.

I always said the spin machine has been their most potent weapon.
 
G

Gimpanzee

Can't believe Batt is handing everyone a stick with a big pointy nail to beat FF with when they don't have to. But it is nice of him to do so.

We will lose the ability for our government to spend money it doesn't have, and won't ever have, and have to pay back what we owe. This 'loss of sovereignty' thing is completely overblown. We've had an unusual relationship with the concept of sovereignty since the state was founded.
 

Hewson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,272
Good question.

Fianna Fail has always described itself as the 'Republican' party and Bertie, infamously, described himself as 'a true Socialist'. Both descriptions consistent with the combined ideals of the 1916 leaders.

Unfortunately, what FF is today is a far cry from those ideals and traditions. It is a far cry from a party dedicated to proud governance and leadership of a developed people.

Fianna Fail has become a junta-like entity that exists to satisfy the wants of its core "aristocracy" and to a lesser degree, its faithful party lap-dogs. It uses and abuses the people who elect (and those who don't) them in the apparent belief it is their right, their heritage. They lie to, deceive and in effect, defraud those to whom they should be responsible.

Sovereignty to Fianna Fail is acceptance of their 'right' to take and squander the riches of the state.

It has nothing to do with the general populace.
Your description of the Soldiers of Density (not a typo) is spot on but I'd take issue with the last line. It has everything to do with the general populace.

Your vote is democracy divided by the number of voters. It's the individual's responsibility to educate him/herself on what casting that vote for a certain candidate and party entails. Too many people don't bother to do that, either because they're too lazy, misguided or just plain stupid. If people are going to vote for Mickey John because he's the Fianna Fail candidate and make no allowance for the fact that the same guy is a shady-dealing, half-educated, slimy moron who you wouldn't like to see your daughter dating, then they shouldn't be surprised if their country goes pear-shaped when Mickey John gets his greasy paws on the levers of power.

It's as simple as 2+2. Fianna Fail has the potential to be a party capable of good government. It has some good TDs, like John McGuinness. But men like McGuinness don't get anywhere because they won't be cannon-fodder for people who they know are intellectually inferior. After years of being in power and being corrupted by its associations with well-heeled knackers and maladministered by corrupt leaders and ministers, the party is now ethically, morally and intellectually destitute. It needs to go into the outback to re-invent itself. It needs to forget about power and fix what's gone wrong in its own heart and soul.

Until it does that it should remain a political pariah.
 

EvotingMachine0197

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,552
Can't believe Batt is handing everyone a stick with a big pointy nail to beat FF with when they don't have to. But it is nice of him to do so.

We will lose the ability for our government to spend money it doesn't have, and won't ever have, and have to pay back what we owe. This 'loss of sovereignty' thing is completely overblown. We've had an unusual relationship with the concept of sovereignty since the state was founded.
A bit like our relationship with the concept of neutrality perhaps ?
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,369
Do you think that the general populace of this island is some enlightened force for the greater good, just waiting to be set free from its Fianna Fail clutches?

I don't. I think it's a bunch of narrow minded bigots who only look out for themselves and their own.
But I think FF made society be like this - they created the conditions where we could not be otherwise. As the documentary posted above put it (in relation to FF):

"...We were told that we were the sons and daughters of revolutionary heros, and our role now was to be one of gratitude - well behaved gratitude.... To criticise the society our own guerilla fighters had built up was to be a traitor... We were to keep quiet, and they like jolly but tough old uncles would take care of us..."

Also, it is worth listening to what Sean O' Faolain says about the society that grew up after FF came to power, at 3.25mins.

It seems that nothing has changed.
 

farnaby

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
1,933
Don't understand this thread - are you saying FF has become so remote from what the vast majority of Irish people are and want to be that sovereign power has effectively been taken away from the irish people? Love 'em or hate 'em (the latter for me) they were and are reflective of some fundamental Irish cultural traits.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,369
Don't understand this thread - are you saying FF has become so remote from what the vast majority of Irish people are and want to be that sovereign power has effectively been taken away from the irish people? Love 'em or hate 'em (the latter for me) they were and are reflective of some fundamental Irish cultural traits.
They always were. They have always aligned themselves with the primary authority of the day, fawned up to them, made themselves out to be 'jolly but tough old uncles', and they have always worked to ingratiate themselves with that authority (whether the church or big business). 'The people' have only EVER figured as peasants who need to be lead by the nose as far as I can see.

And the only Irish cultural traits they reflect and propagate are the ones that are most ignominious in our culture - again, Sean O Faolain enunciates these traits well at 3.25mins in the video I posted above.
 

Anglo Celt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
1,177
But I think FF made society be like this - they created the conditions where we could not be otherwise. As the documentary posted above put it (in relation to FF):

"...We were told that we were the sons and daughters of revolutionary heros, and our role now was to be one of gratitude - well behaved gratitude.... To criticise the society our own guerilla fighters had built up was to be a traitor... We were to keep quiet, and they like jolly but tough old uncles would take care of us..."

Also, it is worth listening to what Sean O' Faolain says about the society that grew up after FF came to power, at 3.25mins.

It seems that nothing has changed.
Isn't this the norm though, for all revolutionary governments? especially those born out of violence? Their ideology becomes the core of the state and so they become the core of the state that they create. Attacking them, is a de facto attack on the state and the institutions of the state. Which makes you a traitor. Very convenient. Nationalist governments (Spain, Italy, Germany, Chile etc) were all masters of this.

Interesting topic!!
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,369
Yeah, except FF utterly betrayed the ideology of our revolution of 1916 - in fact, they turned it right on its head.

As O'Faolain says, "...if those dead men of 1916 had been able to see the kind of Ireland that came out of their efforts, they would think that their efforts had been betrayed, and their sacrifice made in vain..."
 

loner

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
8,089
We have now reached the Endgame--Fianna Fail have destroyed everything that our forefathers fought and died for--Shame on them.
 

Mitsui2

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
32,351
Fianna Fail has become a junta-like entity that exists to satisfy the wants of its core "aristocracy" and to a lesser degree, its faithful party lap-dogs. It uses and abuses the people who elect (and those who don't) them in the apparent belief it is their right, their heritage. They lie to, deceive and in effect, defraud those to whom they should be responsible.

Sovereignty to Fianna Fail is acceptance of their 'right' to take and squander the riches of the state.

It has nothing to do with the general populace.
An excellent summary
 

Anglo Celt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
1,177
I've often wondered about something though... We used have an Irish Conservative Party, and by all accounts they were a pretty powerful bunch up, now they barely register on the historical radar in this country. Will FF (and to a lesser extent) FG ever end up being something we only read about in the history books or will we keep flogging this dead horse?
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,369
We have now reached the Endgame--Fianna Fail have destroyed everything that our forefathers fought and died for--Shame on them.
I disagree. The ideals, hopes and aspirations held by those who fought in 1916 never made it to the light of day. No doubt, the dominant reason was DeValera and the party he created.

However, the life that was given to these kind of ideals by the men of 1916 still resonates around Irish hearts and minds today.

It might sound a cliche at this stage (no doubt in no small amount due to the frequency with which the FF faithful call on the legacy of 1916, falsely of course), but, the spirit is still alive of those ideals, hopes, and capacity for selflessness - somewhere.
 
Last edited:

ocoonassa

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
6,124
Isn't this the norm though, for all revolutionary governments? especially those born out of violence? Their ideology becomes the core of the state and so they become the core of the state that they create. Attacking them, is a de facto attack on the state and the institutions of the state. Which makes you a traitor. Very convenient. Nationalist governments (Spain, Italy, Germany, Chile etc) were all masters of this.

Interesting topic!!
Indeed, and well you might have a point if the people inspired by the 1916 Declaration had succeeded but they were put down by the majority who borrowed British ordanance to do the job. The Irish State never held their values, it had the ideology of the people who either never held them or who abandoned them.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top