The squeezed middle about to become a whole lot more squeezed

Disillusioned democrat

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The IW fiasco is a good proxy for our current dysfunctional political leadership that will make being middle class a whole lot more unpleasant over the coming few years.

Paul Murphy has become the most influential politician in the Dail - SF are looking to out left Paul, FF are looking to out populist SF and FG will do anything FF request to stay in power as long as there's more state money to funnel into private hands.

The squeezed middle are going to be squeezed more and more as politicians try desperately to avoid the "won't pay" brigade's tantrums while continuing the good work of putting the remaining assets of the state into private corporations.

Tellingly with IW there has never been any talk about making IW cheaper - no mention of dismantling the behemoth John Tierney created, about unwinding the bonus culture or about returning it to LAs - all the talk has been about who will pay.

The "winners" in IW were those who insist on paying nothing for water. If you're a tax payer you're still paying and now paying for everyone else too, so all the talk about moral victories just means the burden of paying falls on fewer people.

As long as FG remain propped up by FF they WILL continue to avoid taking tax from corporations, continue inflating the property bubble and continue funding developers thru HAP, repair and lease schemes and first time grants.

So the "won't pays" will pretty much get whatever they protest for, the FG/FF cronies will continue to get whatever they want, so the money has to come from the middle - as if it wasn't bad enough already.
 
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wombat

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We were in a similar situation in the 80's where FitzGerald was happy to back Labour's demands for higher spending financed by the PAYE sector. It turned out that this was the time where, according to the banks, half the country lived in Kilburn. The result were the tax protests and the foundation of the PDs. Whatever their faults, the PDs brought the option of voting for a party which advocated cutting income tax. It seems that FG have forgotten that lesson.
 

raspberry tea

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There is a lot of people who just don't see the point in paying for choridated,flouridated water that tastes like what you would get in the local pool - its supposed to be harmful and cancerous. You have either the option of your water too santizied and harmful.Or with ecoli and crytpospridium floating around in it.So either way its harmful,why pay for irish water when the reality is most people do not even use tap-water to boil the kettle,and use bottles of aldi water or lidl water instead?????Why should we pay for it again?????I come from a middle class home and i can tell you i know where you are coming from the reason why our taxes are so high is precisely because we are carrying the can paying for water services - THAT JUST DON'T WORK.And other people on the dole or working class or whatever just don't want to pay it,or pay for much of anything really,yes i do find it unfair but until they get their heads out of their ass and see the fundamental issue as to why people do not want to pay they will never get it.....They are even raiding pension pots of middle class people already.Look at the inheritance taxes too!No i get it i really do, And Believe me , i cannot stand Paul Murphy - i find him extremely condescending and disingenous,i think he is a total ****************************** and a fake,born with the silver spoon pretending to be for the working class when he would be happy to sell them down the river for islamic votes in lest say 10-20 years the people of jobstown will know exactly what hes about - In England the only families that are top of the list in the UK,even single people too - are the muslims - everyone else is second class there!Thats the way its going to go....
 

Disillusioned democrat

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There is a lot of people who just don't see the point in paying for choridated,flouridated water that tastes like what you would get in the local pool - its supposed to be harmful and cancerous. You have either the option of your water too santizied and harmful.Or with ecoli and crytpospridium floating around in it.So either way its harmful,why pay for irish water when the reality is most people do not even use tap-water to boil the kettle,and use bottles of aldi water or lidl water instead?????Why should we pay for it again?????I come from a middle class home and i can tell you i know where you are coming from the reason why our taxes are so high is precisely because we are carrying the can paying for water services - THAT JUST DON'T WORK.And other people on the dole or working class or whatever just don't want to pay it,or pay for much of anything really,yes i do find it unfair but until they get their heads out of their ass and see the fundamental issue as to why people do not want to pay they will never get it.....They are even raiding pension pots of middle class people already.Look at the inheritance taxes too!No i get it i really do, And Believe me , i cannot stand Paul Murphy - i find him extremely condescending and disingenous,i think he is a total ****************************** and a fake,born with the silver spoon pretending to be for the working class when he would be happy to sell them down the river for islamic votes in lest say 10-20 years the people of jobstown will know exactly what hes about - In England the only families that are top of the list in the UK,even single people too - are the muslims - everyone else is second class there!Thats the way its going to go....
FG's "secret sauce" has been to extort Scandi level taxes and deliver crap services with the rest being bled out of the country to vulture funds and pointless "water meters".

IW shouldn't have beel allowed become a "won't pay issue" it should have been a protest against the new quango, the serial tax wasting CEO, the bonus culture, Siteserv, etc.
 

raspberry tea

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FG's "secret sauce" has been to extort Scandi level taxes and deliver crap services with the rest being bled out of the country to vulture funds and pointless "water meters".

IW shouldn't have beel allowed become a "won't pay issue" it should have been a protest against the new quango, the serial tax wasting CEO, the bonus culture, Siteserv, etc.
I completely agree with what you are saying and couldn't articulate it myself,i think there are some chancers that see an opportunity here like Paul Murphy - who want to do a Fianna Fail on it and buy votes,that's essentially what the ''wont pay'' crowd is about,getting Paul Murphy elected again at some point,and probably to a better position - Let's hope for all our sakes that doesn't happen.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I completely agree with what you are saying and couldn't articulate it myself,i think there are some chancers that see an opportunity here like Paul Murphy - who want to do a Fianna Fail on it and buy votes,that's essentially what the ''wont pay'' crowd is about,getting Paul Murphy elected again at some point,and probably to a better position - Let's hope for all our sakes that doesn't happen.
IW has made Paul Murphy the "golden child" for the "won't pay" mob - he's even got the credentials of being arrested at a protest.

Paul Murphy is the man who won the last election on a "won't pay" manifesto and he's about the only politician who has delivered what he said he'd do - not because it was the right thing to do, but because the rest of or politicians are in too much of a jock.

If Paul Murphy were to decide everyone has a right to electricity, or milk or cars there's enough momentum in the mob and enough panic in the traditional parties that he'd have a fair chance of getting more and more concessions.

FG have pretty much handed policy making over to Paul Murphy and any net tax payer will be paying the price, but I don't expect FG will rein in the corporate giveaways to compensate.
 

Mad as Fish

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The IW fiasco is a good proxy for our current dysfunctional political leadership that will make being middle class a whole lot more unpleasant over the coming few years.

Paul Murphy has become the most influential politician in the Dail - SF are looking to out left Paul, FF are looking to out populist SF and FG will do anything to stay in power as long as there's more state money to funnel into private hands.

The squeezed middle are going to be squeezed more and more as politicians try desperately to avoid the "won't pay" brigade's tantrums while continuing the good work of putting the remaining assets of the state into private corporations.

Tellingly with IW there has never been any talk about making IW cheaper - no mention of dismantling the behemoth John Tierney created, about unwinding the bonus culture or about returning it to LAs - all the talk has been about who will pay.

The "winners" in IW were those who insist on paying nothing for water. If you're a tax payer you're still paying and now paying for everyone else too, so all the talk about moral victories just means the burden of paying falls on fewer people.

As long as FG remain propped up by FF they WILL continue to avoid taking tax from corporations, continue inflating the property bubble and continue funding developers thru HAP, repair and lease schemes and first time grants.

So the "won't pays" will pretty much get whatever they protest for, the FG/FF cronies will continue to get whatever they want, so the money has to come from the middle - as if it wasn't bad enough already.
Pure hyperbole.

Yes indeed, I'm helping pay for your water through my taxes as you are paying for mine just as I am helping pay for the roads that we all use. In fact the middle income groups are likely to have newer cars and pay less road tax than I am which is far more discriminatory than all chipping in to ensure everybody has ready access to a clean source of a basic necessity of life and health.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Pure hyperbole.

Yes indeed, I'm helping pay for your water through my taxes as you are paying for mine just as I am helping pay for the roads that we all use. In fact the middle income groups are likely to have newer cars and pay less road tax than I am which is far more discriminatory than all chipping in to ensure everybody has ready access to a clean source of a basic necessity of life and health.
Not at all.

FG made a balls of this, it's fair to say.

The first thing they should have done was to reduce tax and increase SW by the value of the average water consumption, or to create tax credits or Supplemental Welfare allowances to balance it off to overcome the argument that "sure we're already paying for it" because that was indeed the case, so their grubby approach just looked like a new tax that was being funneled into a new quango populated by insiders.

Once the missed that opportunity they were beyond redemption and there was no way back, so the likes of Paul Murphy made political capitol out of what effectively is a tax payer rape.
 

ainm_eile

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The IW fiasco is a good proxy for our current dysfunctional political leadership that will make being middle class a whole lot more unpleasant over the coming few years.

Paul Murphy has become the most influential politician in the Dail - SF are looking to out left Paul, FF are looking to out populist SF and FG will do anything FF request to stay in power as long as there's more state money to funnel into private hands.

The squeezed middle are going to be squeezed more and more as politicians try desperately to avoid the "won't pay" brigade's tantrums while continuing the good work of putting the remaining assets of the state into private corporations.

Tellingly with IW there has never been any talk about making IW cheaper - no mention of dismantling the behemoth John Tierney created, about unwinding the bonus culture or about returning it to LAs - all the talk has been about who will pay.

The "winners" in IW were those who insist on paying nothing for water. If you're a tax payer you're still paying and now paying for everyone else too, so all the talk about moral victories just means the burden of paying falls on fewer people.

As long as FG remain propped up by FF they WILL continue to avoid taking tax from corporations, continue inflating the property bubble and continue funding developers thru HAP, repair and lease schemes and first time grants.

So the "won't pays" will pretty much get whatever they protest for, the FG/FF cronies will continue to get whatever they want, so the money has to come from the middle - as if it wasn't bad enough already.
The Irish left have been pretty harsh on how much money IW wastes TBF. Or at least compared to FG, allegedly the party of sound finances.
 

Sister Mercedes

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Ironically the original resistance to IW was because it was a poster child for PS corruption, entitlement, lack of accountability and cronyism. But the political classes misread it as a call to arms for the far far left.
 

Spanner Island

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As long as FG remain propped up by FF they WILL continue to avoid taking tax from corporations, continue inflating the property bubble and continue funding developers thru HAP, repair and lease schemes and first time grants.

So the "won't pays" will pretty much get whatever they protest for, the FG/FF cronies will continue to get whatever they want, so the money has to come from the middle - as if it wasn't bad enough already.
If anyone was starting to forget the scumbaggery the eFFing traitors represent the last week or so should have reminded them loud and clear.

It is ALWAYS party before country with those conniving self serving w@nkers... which is why they're not 'propping up' anyone. They're simply doing what they excel at... in their usual cynical and disingenuous ways.

As for paying for water... we're gonna pay for it one way or another. Either that or it'll be raw sewerage and boil water notices that will be taking up Dail time.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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BTW - this isn't an anti-IW thread, it's broader than that.

FG happy as sandboys with the housing crisis they've created and FF looking at SF over their shoulders insisting that even at the hyper-inflated cost of housing that tax payers are forced to bid against themselves by providing "suitably" located homes to everyone on the housing list and also funding first time buyers.

Developers and landlords making out like bandits (FG happy) and social media savvy campaigners like Erica Fleming getting a home exactly where she wants (FF happy) but tax payer now living 40 miles outside Dublin and commuting 90 mins either way (tax payer NOT happy).
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I recall they had no problem pointing out how IW leaked money, and how they could bring it to its knees by refusing to pay charges. This was a few years ago of course.
TBH IW was/is a disaster - €50m on a billing system that won't be used, €500m on water meters that won't be used, €5m on media campaigns to sell the idea to us (that didn't work), John Tierney and a raft of "retired and pensioned" LA managers back on 6 figure salaries, etc. - indeed that was all part of FG's plan and anyone who criticised it was dead right....but rather than go with the "we won't pay until it's done right" they went with the far more populist "let the rich pay for the waste and our water"...and sadly by rich they mean anyone richer than them.
 

paulp

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IW has made Paul Murphy the "golden child" for the "won't pay" mob - he's even got the credentials of being arrested at a protest.

Paul Murphy is the man who won the last election on a "won't pay" manifesto and he's about the only politician who has delivered what he said he'd do - not because it was the right thing to do, but because the rest of or politicians are in too much of a jock.

If Paul Murphy were to decide everyone has a right to electricity, or milk or cars there's enough momentum in the mob and enough panic in the traditional parties that he'd have a fair chance of getting more and more concessions.

FG have pretty much handed policy making over to Paul Murphy and any net tax payer will be paying the price, but I don't expect FG will rein in the corporate giveaways to compensate.
That's not as outlandish as you might think.

We advent of technological automation - self driving cars will be on our roads in next 5 years - more and more work will be done by machines.
Does that set people free to follow their passion or doom people to life long unemployment?
In this type of scenario which is literally just around the corner, concepts like Basic Income will come more to the fore in political/social discussions.
 

HarshBuzz

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TBH IW was/is a disaster - €50m on a billing system that won't be used, €500m on water meters that won't be used, €5m on media campaigns to sell the idea to us (that didn't work), John Tierney and a raft of "retired and pensioned" LA managers back on 6 figure salaries, etc. - indeed that was all part of FG's plan and anyone who criticised it was dead right....but rather than go with the "we won't pay until it's done right" they went with the far more populist "let the rich pay for the waste and our water"...and sadly by rich they mean anyone richer than them.
5% of workers pay over 50% of income taxes.

33% of workers pay no income tax.

I think I see the problem. You want services? Pay for them. Ireland is uniquely charitable towards low paid workers.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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That's not as outlandish as you might think.

We advent of technological automation - self driving cars will be on our roads in next 5 years - more and more work will be done by machines.
Does that set people free to follow their passion or doom people to life long unemployment?
In this type of scenario which is literally just around the corner, concepts like Basic Income will come more to the fore in political/social discussions.
That's fine as long as it's balanced - basic income needs to come from taxing the companies benefiting from automation...with FG in government and to be honest I can't see FF being much different....there will be no increase in corporate tax so the basic income will need to come from the fewer and fewer people still paying tax, which is exactly my argumant.

The more you pay from income tax while fighting tooth and nail NOT to even take corporation tax the more those who pay tax will be squeezed. If IW is an example of things to come we're royally screwed.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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5% of workers pay over 50% of income taxes.

33% of workers pay no income tax.

I think I see the problem. You want services? Pay for them. Ireland is uniquely charitable towards low paid workers.
It's not charity, it's indenture. Low tax enables crap salaries which helps enrich employers. Basically the Irish state is set up as a cheap labour economy where corporates decide how much tax they pay and our political leaders tug their forelocks and do a little jig to show how grateful they are for the opportunity to screw over their own citizens.
 

Lúidín

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The 'squeezed middle' doesn't exist other than as a delusion of those who bought the lie that they were a cut above the common working citizens.

If you live by a wage or salary, you are not in the middle and you are definitely not on the top with the billionaire idlers and tax dodgers. You may aspire in that direction and if so, you have bought into the biggest con-trick of the present era.

The sooner the deluded 'middle' learns to join the mass of citizens in putting manners on the parasitic group at the top, who steal our resources, the sooner things will improve for all.
 


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