The Tipping Point: Part 2

LeDroit

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As many of you will know I posted a thread in Sept titled The Tipping Point. For me, right of centre, I saw nobody on the political landscape who represented my outlook. I could see no alternative other than an insipid FG govt directed by the trade unions reps Labour.

I have been deliberately quiet on this following my thread. I had an amazing reaction to it. I met up with alot of people, some established Faces, some newcomers with a passion, all with a view to forming a credible Liberal alternative.

Unfortunately, I did not find who I was after. Instead I found genuine people, some of whom shared my economic philosophy but who had a social conservatism best left with Archbishop McQuaid in the grave. We tried to bridge the gap but it was impossible. Ultimately, the social conservatism was equally important to them as the economic liberalism. I could not in good conscience follow the Dev/McQuaid vision despite their undoubtedly correct libertarian position on economics.

I want readers who contacted me to know that I did try but I couldn't do it. I want to apologise for not contacting you guys back. As you can imagine, it was delicate at the time. I was hoping for consensus but it wasn't to be. Thank you to all who contacted me.

To be frank, I have spoken to alot of people on the right about this but beyond the rhetoric there is very little omongst them all that could challenge.

So, this is an update on the first thread I posted. Tragically, I have only bad news.
 


Boy M5

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Didn't the PD's economic philosophy enacted by their eager economically illiterate accolyte Charlie McCreevy destroy our country?

There wouldn't have been such a greed fueled agenda (which destroyed our international competitiveness, our banking system, and households / families) under the bould John Charles & Eamon
 

abccormac

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Unfortunately, I did not find who I was after. Instead I found genuine people, some of whom shared my economic philosophy but who had a social conservatism best left with Archbishop McQuaid in the grave. We tried to bridge the gap but it was impossible. Ultimately, the social conservatism was equally important to them as the economic liberalism. I could not in good conscience follow the Dev/McQuaid vision despite their undoubtedly correct libertarian position on economics.
Can you offer any insight as to why that socially conservative streak seems to go hand in hand with right wing economics? I've never understood the connection between wanting to deregulate business and shrink the government while at the same time wanting to intrude into peoples private lives.

Also, while I would strongly disagree with your ideas about how the economy should be run, fair play to you for at least trying.
 

CookieMonster

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Didn't the PD's economic philosophy enacted by their eager economically illiterate accolyte Charlie McCreevy destroy our country?
No.
 

commonman

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People of this country , every thing is going to be ok its all a dream ,yes the good old days my dad used to say about the 40s and the 50s ,so now we will know what i was like to live in that age , without Archbishop McQuaid and Dev. and see what kind of country we will become. Somebody find us a leader please before the like of them come back
 

Panopticon

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Unsurprised, I am afraid. There are plenty of people in Ireland who want:
- American-style "Democrat" civil liberty, but with a much bigger government than any US Democrat would ever consider;
- American-style "Republican" economic policy, but with the US Republican desire for religion in politics or just opposition to civil liberty;
- radical libertarians who are unwilling to compromise on their quasi-religious beliefs in the sanctity of property (and who are often social conservatives themselves; I don't think we will see the Irish Liberty Forum at a gay rights march any time soon);
but not many people willing to collaborate in the sweet spot of a realistic, liberal political party between these three non-liberal views.

The demand is there. There are a good 3-6 seats in Dublin that belong to voters with these views, and this has been the case for the last 30 years.
 

TradCat

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Can you offer any insight as to why that socially conservative streak seems to go hand in hand with right wing economics? I've never understood the connection between wanting to deregulate business and shrink the government while at the same time wanting to intrude into peoples private lives.
It's can seem a bit of a mystery. If people can be trusted to make their own economic decisions you'd think they could be trusted to make their own personal decisions.

But then again that's not what the left want. They believe that you should be free to do what you like and if you mess up your life the state should step in and subsidise you. So if you want to smoke and drink your way through life eating burgers and having an active and promiscuous sex-life the consequences of that become an expense for the rest of us. Because you are entitled! No to a two-tier health service! and all the rest of the emotive nonsense.

People on the centre-right have to vote Fine Gael. There is simply no other choice and no hope of one emerging before the election.
 

bokuden

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Yes.

Why would free market libertarians want to get into politics anyway? I thought they see government as the problem?

Seriously though, I think anyone who isn't in an established party has a good chance of being elected to the next Dail. You could always run as an independent Le Droit. I wouldn't vote for you, but others may.
 

Hazlitt

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I found.. people.. whom shared my economic philosophy but who had a social conservatism best left with Archbishop McQuaid in the grave.
This unfortunately has been my and many others big problem.

I could not in good conscience follow the Dev/McQuaid vision despite their undoubtedly correct libertarian position on economics.
I applaud you for this stance LeDroit. Yours was the harder road to take but a more principled one, something sadly lacking in politics. You are to be commended for that in my opinion.

I did try..
Well then you've done more than many others. Again, I applaud you for both your effort and for standing by your principles.

I don't think we will see the Irish Liberty Forum at a gay rights march any time soon
Why not?
 

Panopticon

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Can you offer any insight as to why that socially conservative streak seems to go hand in hand with right wing economics? I've never understood the connection between wanting to deregulate business and shrink the government while at the same time wanting to intrude into peoples private lives.
It's really just a correlation that happens in some countries. For instance, we couldn't really say that this has always been the case in Ireland. The last government was right-wing and very mildly socially liberal. All across Europe, there are right-wing liberal parties in government and opposition. Fianna Fáil theorists even make pretensions towards being a "liberal" party with an economic reform agenda nowadays.

Undoubtedly this correlation exists, though. I think it's because conservative rhetoric is just more appealing than liberal rhetoric. It's always easier to blame foreigners and young people for one's problems than to blame a lack of individual freedom and responsibility. A second reason is that almost all left-wing parties pay lip service to a free society, so a successful right-wing party will be one that captures the social conservative vote. That is why this polarisation happens in FPTP countries like the UK and the USA, where you have to create a big coalition or else the electoral system itself wipes you out.
 

antiestablishmentarian

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My heart bleeds for ye, PD ideology has done enough damage to this country without resurrecting them. We'll be paying for the PD's folly for the rest of our lives.
 

Hazlitt

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Many of its contributors are noted social conservatives, e.g. people involved in Catholic politics. I think it would split the organisation.
Libertarians have a "live and let live" philosophy (that doesn't mean they don't have individual preferences, outlooks etc), I would be majorly surprised if ANY member didn't support a persons right to live their life HOWEVER they see fit. Anyone who doesnt quite simply isn't a libertarian.
 

Hazlitt

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My heart bleeds for ye, PD ideology has done enough damage to this country without resurrecting them. We'll be paying for the PD's folly for the rest of our lives.
PD's would be an entirely diff point of the spectrum pal.

Anyway, we should bring back the only political ideology that has wreaked absolutely no devestation on peoples lives/political stability in world history whatsoever, Socialism. .....Oh hang on :roll:
 

FakeViking

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I could see no alternative other than an insipid FG govt directed by the trade unions reps Labour.
I want to pick you up on this point.

You seem to imply that governing our little country s a difficult job, requiring some Obama-like figure (but let's not go there).

I believe otherwise, I think that any competent County Manager could step into Govt Buildings tomorrow, and turn around the economy within months. The reason we're in the mire is that time and time again the same crew of fools have concreted their past mistakes over and over again. I'm certainly not a blueshirt, but the one lesson we should have learned is that electing another lying spiv like Ahern, Cown and Lenihan ain't going to solve anything.
 

TradCat

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Libertarians have a "live and let live" philosophy (that doesn't mean they don't have individual preferences, outlooks etc), I would be majorly surprised if ANY member didn't support a persons right to live their life HOWEVER they see fit. Anyone who doesnt quite simply isn't a libertarian.
Sure once they pay for it themselves. Right? So no state assistance for unmarried mothers, travellers, drug abusers or "rural Ireland".

No state marriage either.
 

antiestablishmentarian

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PD's would be an entirely diff point of the spectrum pal.

Anyway, we should bring back the only political ideology that has wreaked absolutely no devestation on peoples lives/political stability in world history whatsoever, Socialism. .....Oh hang on :roll:
The fact that there has never been a socialist system anywhere negates your point. In any case, this crisis is proving every day that capitalism doesn't work, so casting stones at 'socialism' is nothing more than a way for supporters of the system to try and divert attention from the failures of that which they uphold.
 

Hazlitt

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Sure once they pay for it themselves. Right?
Of course, should someone else pay for what I want? Of course it's not your money you think should be spent on it TradCat, it's someone else's, regardless of if that person agrees to voluntarily or not. Very civilised. At the end of the day the only way you can take something from someone without their voluntary agreement is with the threat of violence. But hey, I'm sure you're not an absolute and utter hypocrite, sell the PC you're typing on now (as well as your other "unnecessary" possessions) and donate the proceeds to charities - oh no wait, you're waiting for OTHER peoples money to be spent on those things.

So no state assistance for.. travellers, drug abusers or "rural Ireland".
What "assistance" do you think others should be compelled to give these groups out of interest?

The fact that there has never been a socialist system anywhere negates your point.
Fail.

In any case, this crisis is proving every day that capitalism doesn't work
Haha, yeah right, because a centrally-planned monetary system, centrally planned interest rates, along with crap banking laws (govt made), govt borrowing and govt spending has NOTHING at all to do with this "free market" problem.... what we should do is GROW the government, THAT'S the solution to the problem :roll: - Government IS the problem.
 

antiestablishmentarian

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Oh you've got me there :roll:

Haha, yeah right, because a centrally-planned monetary system, centrally planned interest rates, along with crap banking laws (govt made), govt borrowing and govt spending has NOTHING at all to do with this "free market" problem.... what we should do is GROW the government, THAT'S the solution to the problem :roll: - Government IS the problem.
That is complete rubbish. A key factor in this crash is the non-regulation of the banks and their loan procedures. Govt borrowing and spending has nothing to do with the collapse of the banking system- it's absurd to blame the State for the banks except to blame them for not regulating the banks better.
 


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