The Tipping Point: Part 2

Furze

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But then again that's not what the left want. They believe that you should be free to do what you like and if you mess up your life the state should step in and subsidise you. So if you want to smoke and drink your way through life eating burgers and having an active and promiscuous sex-life the consequences of that become an expense for the rest of us. Because you are entitled! No to a two-tier health service! and all the rest of the emotive nonsense.

People on the centre-right have to vote Fine Gael.
But then again that's not what the right want. They believe that you should be free to do what you like and if you mess up the country the state should step in and subsidise you.

Is this your point ?
 


TradCat

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Of course, should someone else pay for what I want?


Of course it's not your money you think should be spent on it TradCat, it's someone else's, regardless of if that person agrees to voluntarily or not. Very civilised.
You have me all wrong. I agree completely with you. That's why social conservatives should be libertarians. If people had to be responsible for the consequences of their choices we would have a more stable more conservative society. But not conservative in the stifling manner on 1950's Ireland where morality was policed. The good sense of financial planning, self-reliance, altruism and self-discipline would become obvious to most people and charity could take care of the rest.

LeDroit is 100% right to have no truck with social fascism.
 

TradCat

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But then again that's not what the right want. They believe that you should be free to do what you like and if you mess up the country the state should step in and subsidise you.

Is this your point ?
Not me mate. I think if you mess up a business even a bank it should go to the wall and those who invested in it should lose. We are seeing the consequences of not doing that.
 

bobbysands81

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As many of you will know I posted a thread in Sept titled The Tipping Point. For me, right of centre, I saw nobody on the political landscape who represented my outlook. I could see no alternative other than an insipid FG govt directed by the trade unions reps Labour.

I have been deliberately quiet on this following my thread. I had an amazing reaction to it. I met up with alot of people, some established Faces, some newcomers with a passion, all with a view to forming a credible Liberal alternative.

Unfortunately, I did not find who I was after. Instead I found genuine people, some of whom shared my economic philosophy but who had a social conservatism best left with Archbishop McQuaid in the grave. We tried to bridge the gap but it was impossible. Ultimately, the social conservatism was equally important to them as the economic liberalism. I could not in good conscience follow the Dev/McQuaid vision despite their undoubtedly correct libertarian position on economics.

I want readers who contacted me to know that I did try but I couldn't do it. I want to apologise for not contacting you guys back. As you can imagine, it was delicate at the time. I was hoping for consensus but it wasn't to be. Thank you to all who contacted me.

To be frank, I have spoken to alot of people on the right about this but beyond the rhetoric there is very little omongst them all that could challenge.

So, this is an update on the first thread I posted. Tragically, I have only bad news.
Wow, that's some ego you have their mate - "tragically", it's not all about you.
 

Daragh McDowell

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Le Droit - trust me, you're not alone and while the social conservatives may be the most prominent, there will be a genuine liberal alternative in this state again.
 

trekkypj

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Any attempt to shake up the musty and outmoded political life of this country is to be welcomed, even if it's something people disagree with on principle.

I consider myself fiscally conservative - I believe in balanced budgeting, responsible spending and avoidance of debt. I believe proper planning of state projects is lacking and should be addressed. I am against quangos, excessive bureaucracy and the duplication of resources.

I do, however, feel that we also have a duty of care to ensure that the gap between rich and poor is reduced. I think that the burden of taxation has to be fair and proportionate. I also believe health, education and affordable housing schemes are essential to ensure that we don't leave the genuinely impoverished behind.

What I object to is the discretionary spending on payments - take one example. People earning over, say, €50,000 should not get child benefit of any kind.

There should also be an upper limit on how much is paid out - otherwise you foster a dependence on state handouts. I have always believed that people need to be responsible for their decisions - they should be discouraged from having children if they do not have the means to support them. That's common sense. There should be a cap above which no additional payment is made.

And there are other examples where we have gone nuts on spending when we should be simplifying and establishing reasonable limits to social welfare protection.

Everyone not on benefits should pay *some* tax, because a small country cannot fund itself on the basis of removing 40% from the income tax net. But I also believe that there should be no tax breaks except for charitable donations and investment in research and development, which is socially desirable.

Tax cuts and exemptions, coupled with massive increases in welfare payments, are crucifying this country. That's why we are spending €19bn more this year than we take in, leaving out the bail-outs of the banks. That's ridiculous and can't go on.

Taxation on business should not be held as a sacred cow. I don't believe that many multinationals will pull out if Corporation tax was set at 20%. Remember, it's a tax on profits, not on income. They would pay more in most EU countries, and frankly we need to reduce our reliance on foreign investment and start building an export-led economy.

The trouble is that people take social benefits and low taxes for granted and it would be deeply unpopular to change them. They don't see the big picture, they see their household income cut, their taxes raises and that hurts them on a day to day level.

You couldn't make these changes overnight, they would have to gradually be brought in over time, while being frank with them from the beginning.

That's why I welcome the IMF/EU bailout. It will force the country to face these problems and deal with them.

LeDroit, I don't know how much of this corresponds with your thoughts. I would suggest, however, that a flexible approach and a willingness to make changes over time rather than immediate, revolutionary changes, often helps to achieve more concensus.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Panopticon

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The extreme right-wingers say that socialism kills and that no true capitalist state has ever existed.

The extreme left-wingers say that capitalism kills and that no true socialist state has ever existed.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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The extreme right-wingers say that socialism kills and that no true capitalist state has ever existed.

The extreme left-wingers say that capitalism kills and that no true socialist state has ever existed.
And the statist elite know it all Keynesian parasites in control destroyed civilisation.
 


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