The Torture Report: What can happen when a Democracy behaves like a Dictatorship

former wesleyan

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Psychologists who developed the aggressive interrogation techniques paid $81 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/us/politics/obama-says-senate-report-vindicates-his-ending-of-cia-program.html

The defenders of the interrogation program say little about two men whom are portrayed especially harshly by the Senate report: James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, two former military psychologists who devised the list of brutal interrogation methods the C.I.A. used and later were paid $81 million to run the program for four years. As the report points out, Dr. Mitchell and Dr. Jessen, had neither experience in interrogation nor knowledge of Al Qaeda, but their influence was crucial on the decision to use waterboarding and other measures long considered torture.
They were first brought to public attention in 2007.

The CIA’s torture teachers - Salon.com

two CIA-employed psychologists, James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, were at the center of the program, which likely violated the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners. The two are currently under investigation: Salon has learned that Daniel Dell’Orto, the principal deputy general counsel at the Department of Defense, sent a “document preservation” order on May 15 to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and other top Pentagon officials forbidding the destruction of any document mentioning Mitchell and Jessen or their psychological consulting firm, Mitchell, Jessen and Associates, based in Spokane, Wash. Dell’Orto’s order was in response to a May 1 request from Sen. Carl Levin, the Democratic chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who is investigating the abuse of prisoners in U.S. custody.
 


Rafael Rose

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Not sure who your talking to. Some of us have been shouting about this since 2001/2.
The majority of people didn't care then and they don't care now, some people will come out and show how shocked they are then it will be old news again and forgotten about by tomorrow. I'm not saying that to offend you it's just the way people feel about it, who cares if a few terrorists have been tortured?

Can I ask does your avatar mean you are a Labour supporter, is that the same Labour party as in the one from the UK?
 

NYCKY

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You left out a lot including the systematic militarisation of the police, the crackdown on democratic protest
(8000 occupy wall street protesters arrested, ferguson robocops with military sniper rifles ) and of course
the privatised prison industrial complex which holds the highest per capita prison population in the world and that includes all the usual whipping boys such as china, north korea, russia etc.

They destroyed Libya, they destroyed Iraq, they are instrumental in currently destroying Syria, and they poured 5 billion into Ukraine towards "stirring up a nazi sectarian hornets nest "democracy building" leading to civil war and increased tensions between nuclear equipped states.

They (US wall street crooks) knowingly badly damaged the world economy with their toxic derivatives and are currently (with their friends the saudis) instrumental in pushing the price of oil to 50 dollars a barrel in an attempt to destroy Iran, venezuela and Russia

They are out of control

Oh...and there's all this of course:
Enforcing American Hegemony - A Timeline
(assuming, unlike the captive mainstream media, you don't think history began a year or two ago!)
If there is a problem anywhere in the world, be it the the Peoples Republic of Kreblakistan or the Chronicles of Narnia, it's always the fault of the Americans.

It was OPEC that cut oil production, OPEC are the same guys that gave us the oil crisis in the 1970s and that's an organization that the US is not and have never been a member of. There are people sitting around in Goldman Sachs spending their days dreaming up of ways to destroy other economies

In a discussion on human rights violations by the US, you loop in Russia, Iran and Venezuela. You don't do irony, do you?
 

olli rehn

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If there is a problem anywhere in the world, be it the the Peoples Republic of Kreblakistan or the Chronicles of Narnia, it's always the fault of the Americans.

It was OPEC that cut oil production, OPEC are the same guys that gave us the oil crisis in the 1970s and that's an organization that the US is not and have never been a member of. There are people sitting around in Goldman Sachs spending their days dreaming up of ways to destroy other economies

In a discussion on human rights violations by the US, you loop in Russia, Iran and Venezuela. You don't do irony, do you?
You have to admit that the US with this s hi t at hand just looks like an "ordinary" dictatorship. Galtieri and Pinochet behaved no different than the f u cking Bush administration !

Oops...nearly forgot: Pinochet was a CIA man. Another inside job....take Idi Amin instead- he had no US backing...
 

Ardillaun

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I believe in choosing the lesser of many evils - and the US is still a lesser evil country than many other countries on the globe. The same goes for any western country.
It seems to be less evil by a smaller amount each year. I see convergence ahead.
 

Dame_Enda

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This barbarism at least has been owned up to. The same barbarism that is rare in the US (indeed they had to send the victims outside the US to get away with it) is systematic in Russia and China but will never be admitted. But there exists a parallel - mainly that in a war situation, almost anything can be excused by the government in order to defeat an enemy. This process was also used to destroy democracy in Russia, but with the Chechens being the pretext. It was expanded on during the wars in Georgia and Ukraine, where conflicts have served as another pretext for a clampdown on the Russian Opposition and media.
 

Colkitto

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You left out a lot including the systematic militarisation of the police, the crackdown on democratic protest
(8000 occupy wall street protesters arrested, ferguson robocops with military sniper rifles ) and of course
the privatised prison industrial complex which holds the highest per capita prison population in the world and that includes all the usual whipping boys such as china, north korea, russia etc.

They destroyed Libya, they destroyed Iraq, they are instrumental in currently destroying Syria, and they poured 5 billion into Ukraine towards "stirring up a nazi sectarian hornets nest "democracy building" leading to civil war and increased tensions between nuclear equipped states.

They (US wall street crooks) knowingly badly damaged the world economy with their toxic derivatives and are currently (with their friends the saudis) instrumental in pushing the price of oil to 50 dollars a barrel in an attempt to destroy Iran, venezuela and Russia

They are out of control

Oh...and there's all this of course:
Enforcing American Hegemony - A Timeline
(assuming, unlike the captive mainstream media, you don't think history began a year or two ago!)
Excellent post(s),

Briefly, as I was squinting or responding to the difference, what happen(s) for want of better/expression if there is one..the heat of the battle..to the organised pre-emptive and controlled violence of occupation and control...that has barely changed in over several thousand years.

Prompted, by a scholarly woman’s and her taking the time to look at some statistics. and antics..saw or could see under my breathe during the US 'Liberation' conquest through France and Germany, the grand Eisenhower unleashed what he called his North African troops .(Blacks) or words to that effect on local populations France and Germany...the consequence was/is five times women reported got raped by (not by blacks alone) in five month than four years German occupation...never let it be said that the blacks didn't answer the call of duty, given the opportunity...Racist nah, realist I do hope this offends the right people and makes the rest of us read more.
 

owedtojoy

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Excellent post(s),

Briefly, as I was squinting or responding to the difference, what happen(s) for want of better/expression if there is one..the heat of the battle..to the organised pre-emptive and controlled violence of occupation and control...that has barely changed in over several thousand years.

Prompted, by a scholarly woman’s and her taking the time to look at some statistics. and antics..saw or could see under my breathe during the US 'Liberation' conquest through France and Germany, the grand Eisenhower unleashed what he called his North African troops .(Blacks) or words to that effect on local populations France and Germany...the consequence was/is five times women reported got raped by (not by blacks alone) in five month than four years German occupation...never let it be said that the blacks didn't answer the call of duty, given the opportunity...Racist nah, realist I do hope this offends the right people and makes the rest of us read more.
So now Americans are blamed for the behaviour of French Colonial troops, who of course were the object of German racist propaganda.

And how awful it was to be beastly to those nice, white Germans, who where complete gentlemen wherever they roamed. White men, everywhere, rise up and protect your women from those blacks!

And a discussion of rape that neatly elides the mass rapes and attendant murders committed by the Soviets, including those in their "ally" Poland. If that does not prove an anti-American bias, well I can just rest my case.
 

He3

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Psychologists who developed the aggressive interrogation techniques paid $81 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/us/politics/obama-says-senate-report-vindicates-his-ending-of-cia-program.html


They were first brought to public attention in 2007.

The CIA’s torture teachers - Salon.com
This was much cheaper:

"In the 1970s, Brazilian officers were sent to London for training in torture techniques. A former president, General Ernesto Geisel, who ruled from 1974-79, is quoted as saying, “The English, in their secret service, acted with discretion. Our people, inexperienced and extroverted, did it openly. I don’t justify torture, but I recognise there are circumstances when the individual is impelled to practise torture, to obtain certain confessions and so avoid a greater evil.”

The report also quotes former general Hugo de Andrade Abreu who said “at the end of 1970 we sent a group of army officers to England to learn the English system of interrogation. This consists of putting the prisoner in a cell incommunicado, a method known as the ‘refrigerator’.”

In 1971 the “English system”, as it became known, was put into practice in Rio army HQ in Barão de Mesquita street, which had become a torture centre. Four new cubicles were built. One, lined with polystyrene and asbestos, was a “cold room”, another a “sound room”. A third was all white and the fourth, all black.

Each cubicle was monitored to enable interrogators to listen to the prisoners’ heartbeats.

“They were variations on the techniques used by the British army against Irish terrorists,” said Amílcar Lobo, an army psychiatrist who worked in a torture centre at Petrópolis known as the ‘house of death’, “ they were destined to destructure the personality of the prisoners without touching them”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/10/brazil-president-weeps-report-military-dictatorship-abuses?CMP=share_btn_tw
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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This barbarism at least has been owned up to. The same barbarism that is rare in the US (indeed they had to send the victims outside the US to get away with it) is systematic in Russia and China but will never be admitted. But there exists a parallel - mainly that in a war situation, almost anything can be excused by the government in order to defeat an enemy. This process was also used to destroy democracy in Russia, but with the Chechens being the pretext. It was expanded on during the wars in Georgia and Ukraine, where conflicts have served as another pretext for a clampdown on the Russian Opposition and media.
It would be refreshing if we started owning up to our own roles in this stuff, including the CIA misconduct at issue.

Report shows Ireland facilitated CIA rendition programme · TheJournal.ie

Our glass house needs shattering given the denials and faux sanctimony. Ireland north and south not only grants forbearance but also elects people connected with torture and other war crimes from the Troubles. The ROI stands formally neutral to any conflict regardless of right and wrong involved. In doing so it delegates and free rides on dirty work of others for security and oil flow whilst fuelling their planes for cash, etc. As the US, UK amd others do some soul searching here, so should we. We're certainly not entitled to point fingers pretending we're innocent.
 

Sync

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Just saw the Cheney interview. Now there's a guy who's got to be rock solid he's got immunity from charges.
 

GDPR

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is anyone surprised by any of this ?


what kind of surprises me is the extent of this below against their own people:

Illinois Just Made it a Felony for Its Citizens to Record the Police and the Media is Silent
Read more at Illinois Just Made it a Felony for Its Citizens to Record the Police and the Media is Silent | The Free Thought Project
Illinois Just Made it a Felony for Its Citizens to Record the Police and the Media is Silent | The Free Thought Project

The American people are lucky to have a constitution that looks out for them. If they didn't then they would have been a tyranny long ago because power, money and influence corrupts. Referendums are a pain in the ass for politicians who think citizens are disposable.

As one of the comments says quite well :

''This is disturbing. The only reason they would make this a FELONY of all things is because they know they are oppressing the people, and they don't want you to find out.''
 

sheehan

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Because we respect the USA, and remember this report was the work of courageous Americans, does not mean we believe it is Utopia.

It clearly is not - it has a lot of faults. Yet at the same time, it is obviously a more open, more democratic and more generous society than many on the face of the earth. Russia and China, to name but two.

In a choice of lesser evils, that matters.
First, take away "We" and replace it with "I". You get no right to speak for the rest of the humanity!

Second, your reason for YOU respecting the USA appears to be that you just respect it which indicates that rectal feeding by the media is working fine on you. Your liking of resorting to the "evil vs good" thing is very telling.
 

Paddyc

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Why do you state that "America is better than that"?

The US has been running around the world doing stuff like this for a long time, all in the name of "American interests".

I can never understand why people go for the whole "America is a shining city upon a hill" picture that Americans like to paint.
I find myself in total agreement with a post of Dimples 77.

We're through the looking glass people.....
 

sheehan

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Why do you state that "America is better than that"?

The US has been running around the world doing stuff like this for a long time, all in the name of "American interests".

I can never understand why people go for the whole "America is a shining city upon a hill" picture that Americans like to paint.
You got one thing wrong about the US. The US has been running around the world doing stuff like this for a long time, all in the name of "democracy, human rights and freedom"!
 

Trainwreck

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Let me remark that someone whom I did not particularly respect has redeemed himself partially in my eyes.

Senator John McCain, who I regard as a bit of a sabre-rattler and a blusterer, has unequivocally welcomed the report. He spoke out several times against torture in the past - as well he might, as he himself was tortured while in a North Vietnamese prison camp.

One of the arguments against torture of prisoners is that it guarantees a minimum of respect when you own side get taken. Even the Nazis respected prisoners-of-war from the Western Allies, though they did not extend the same respect to Soviet prisoners, thereby ensuring hundreds of thousands of Germans did not return to their homeland.

It comes as no surprise to find that ISIS have probably waterboarded US hostages.

Anyway, fair play to John McCain. Maybe this is his finest hour.

Senator John McCain Delivers Speech Condemning CIA Torture Report - The Atlantic
Except these weren't prisoners of war and the US soldiers captured by Al Qaida could only dream of being as well treated.
 

The OD

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Except these weren't prisoners of war and the US soldiers captured by Al Qaida could only dream of being as well treated.
Much as I'd love to see ISIS carpet bombed out of existence, my own view is that torture is not only ineffective, it's damaging to the society and the individuals who engage in it.
 

MovingStatues

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All this focus on getting the boot-in on the CIA (deservedly) will hand NSA - their internal competitor - even more hacking powers.

Keep you eye on the ball!
 

Paddyc

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Except these weren't prisoners of war and the US soldiers captured by Al Qaida could only dream of being as well treated.
Including having their children sodomized in front of them?

Anyone remember John Yoo

John Yoo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On December 1, 2005, Yoo appeared in a debate in Chicago with Doug Cassel, a law professor from the University of Notre Dame. During the debate, Cassel asked Yoo,

"If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?", to which Yoo replied "No treaty." Cassel followed up with "Also no law by Congress—that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo", to which Yoo replied "I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that."[33]
 


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