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The undercurrent towards fascism in society today and the idiots who might create that situation


Nemesiscorporation

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I have no idea which section to put this into. Mods please put it where it belongs.

A recent thread here on politics.ie has got me thinking. Dangerous I know.
http://www.politics.ie/forum/culture-community/208817-culture-fan-sadly-youve-read-your-last-culture-novel.html

I believe the present economic situation and how it is progressing, is starting to create dangerous fascistic undertones in left of center, center and right of center politics all across Europe. The comments being left online are in general becoming more militant, in all ways.

In the last few serious recessions, banks were looked after for a year or two and during that period the banks made a lot of money due to large transfers of wealth from the many to the few. However governments quickly woke up and worked on long term ways to stimulate the economy and begin the process of ending the ending the recession, building up economy and reducing social unrest. This time things are different as the transfer of wealth from the many to the few is still continuing so long after the present economic crisis begun. We have literally entered a prolonged period of disaster and vulture capitalism, in which the followers of Milton Freidmann and Ayn Rand have reaped enormous wealth at the expense of society itself.

Due to the present economic situation there are numerous people looking for perfect solutions, quick fixes and what appear to be utopian ideals.

I had a conversation with a Swedish neighbour about a month ago, who seemed to be advocating an Utopian society that is eerily similar to that depicted in the book Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein, even though he has not read the book itself. The movie is a very watered down, wishy washy representation of what is depicted in the book. Don't get me wrong, I think that Starship Troopers is a brilliant book and recommend it to a lot of people. However it is an Utopian Ideal which not only would not work as a society, but anyone seriously wanting a society like that, would need to be completely insane, in my opinion.

I have noticed the growing surge in support amongst people for new strong leaders, all over Europe. That worries me, as I know European history quite well. At first it was in South-East Europe, but have noticed the slight rise in support for that form of leadership in central and now Northern Europe.

In Greece going by its history I would expect them to be upsetting the apple cart. They go through a cycle every 30 to 40 years in which they have a revolution and default on there debts. They are a couple of years overdue on that, so I would not be to concerned if that happened in Greece. Even if there was not a crisis in the Eurozone, I would not be in the slightest suprised, if Greece defaulted and had a crisis today anyway.

However the drug of strong leadership seems to be rising in circulation in central Europe, which would concern me. Central European countries know how to have a war and have a history of bloodshed that should scare anyone, if they even give a hint of heading towards fascism.

In Hungary there is a slow drive towards fascism. It is not as fast as some commentators are claiming, but it has taken the first few baby steps in that direction. Fortunately every European country is still quite far away from real fascism, not the imagined fascism of various commentators, who scream fasist or nazi, at the slightest hint of anything.

That brings me to another very serious point.

Today I see various idiots calling people fascist, commie and nazi just because they have a different point of view and sometimes a narrow minded or even a bigoted point of view.

Just because someone is reactionary, bigoted does not like a particular group or has strong nationalistic beliefs, does not make them a nazi. A nazi had a level of hatred of certain groups, belief in cultural dominance and a belief that they were superior over all others, to the point they would have thought nothing of exterminating entire groups in society or even erasing the existance of a country and its people.

Fortunately even the most far right groups we have in society today are far removed from nazism, but if those groups got power, they would probably think it a brilliant idea to emulate the nazi's, as some sort of cool thing to do, not realising the true horror's, until it was far to late and found themselves first in the queue for the gas chambers. Nazi's had no toleration of the existance of anyone who was alcoholic, had a beer belly, was not physically perfect or close to it, above a certain height, of a certain facial structure, etc and basically intended to exterminate anyone not fitting their ideals. Most of the armchair fascistic and nazi style commentators on the internet today, would go to a gas chamber and then up a chimney, in a nazi regime. A fact which none of them seem to understand in any capacity and that they all appear to be in denial off.

Basically what I am trying to say is this.

I read a lot of science fiction books about Utopian societies. Some of the ideas I find fascinating and even cherry pick some ideas from. However I do know what a Utopian society is, a nightmare of the worst kind, as in real. Nazi Germany, Trajan's Roman Empire, Mohammad's Islamic-Arabic conquered areas, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia and Stalin's USSR were Utopian Societies, in which tens of millions if not more, died at the whims of insane leaders.

Utopian societies belong in Science Fiction, where they can be discussed as purely imaginery and not in real life, where they are lethal to most in society.

Anyone aiming to have a Utopian society in reality is insane and on a murderous path to genocide.


Just my opinion, whats yours?
 


Asparagus

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So wanting a better society is akin to genocide?
Hitler was the failure, not facism.
As was Stalin.
History is filled with spectacular failures

Look, The failures of capitalism, democracy, theocracy, facism, communism etc all boil down to personality failures and a failure in integrity in the common man.
The human race is on a journey towards a utopia which while be populated by fully integrated selfless beings.
Whatever the political wrapper, we will always fail because of greed. Mans greatest strength and weakness.
 

LamportsEdge

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I agree with your summary of what has been happening in recent years and being a student of the different forms of government from Graeco-Roman times to the present day I too note that there is a certain narrative abroad which shows signs of being a COIN propaganda push- all ills are where possible being assigned to 'fecklessness' among the general populations in an effort to distract from the actions of national and international kleptocracies.

I agree that the 'technocrat' appointee ideal is being pushed by these kelptocracies. My own suspicion summarised is that we are in a new paradigm where these kleptocracies are aware that major resources are in decline and are trying to arrange a tyranny where diminishing resources are kept to themselves and the rest becomes a drone world of servants dependent on them.

It does sound like the premise for many a science fiction novel- classic or schlock. When the wife of a Morgan boss has more liquid resources in her name than many a sovereign nation then there is a gross imbalance in the world.

The one threat that remains to the kleptocracy both in Ireland and elsewhere is the fact that they are vastly outnumbered. Hence the interest in population and crowd control.

Drones. Spying without warrant in the general surveillance society. Massively funded security states spending time and resources monitoring the general population rather than fighting 'terror'. Obvious use of fear to drive populations into supporting policies they would not otherwise countenance.

This will end badly.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Good question - same theme as a question of my own, basically where's all this likely to end up?

Our system has failed us and countries are beginning to fall apart at the seams - the Greeks, Cypriots and Portuguese seem to be taking to the streets more and looking so solutions "outside" the traditional tool box.

These are interesting times as the "bad boy" of Europe, Germany, that twice in the past century tried to dominate the rest of Europe militarily is now apparently achieving this objective financially. Does this demonstrate that fascism works, EVENTUALLY?
 

Nemesiscorporation

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So wanting a better society is akin to genocide?
Hitler was the failure, not facism.
As was Stalin.
History is filled with spectacular failures

Look, The failures of capitalism, democracy, theocracy, facism, communism etc all boil down to personality failures and a failure in integrity in the common man.
The human race is on a journey towards a utopia which while be populated by fully integrated selfless beings.
Whatever the political wrapper, we will always fail because of greed. Mans greatest strength and weakness.
The reason democracy works is because it is imperfect and can assimilate the imperfections in human beings.

Utopia's do not work because they are perfect societies which would only suit automated machines, not imperfect human beings.

A perfect society would be fleeting at best, as it would literally have to start exterminating large sections of its population to keep them within predefined parameters.

Democracy works best, because it allows human beings to have no parameters, but still be a part of society or not be a part of society, if they wish.
 
Last edited:

Disillusioned democrat

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So wanting a better society is akin to genocide?
Hitler was the failure, not facism.
As was Stalin.
History is filled with spectacular failures

Look, The failures of capitalism, democracy, theocracy, facism, communism etc all boil down to personality failures and a failure in integrity in the common man.
The human race is on a journey towards a utopia which while be populated by fully integrated selfless beings.
Whatever the political wrapper, we will always fail because of greed. Mans greatest strength and weakness.
We seem to be taking a bit of a detour - over past 100 years the wealthy have grown wealthier and the rest have grown less self-sufficient, poorer in relative terms and appear to have become more like worker bees serving a Queen Bee than sentient beings.
 

Dan_Murphy

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Just one point of order, while I have not read the book Starship Troopers its my understanding that the film is meant to be a parody of that sort of nationalism. :)

The problem is that for a lot of people its getting very desperate out there, and anyone who can peddle to them a simple solution, even if that solution is as simple as "Deport anyone who has a skin color darker than mine", is someone they are going to stick with. They know they cannot trust their governments, they know the media is hopelessly compromised, they don't know whats happening in their future, and in that mix of frustration and paranoia they will trust anyone as long as that person will make things appear better in the short term.

I remember seeing David McWilliams in UCC a few years ago when he had a talk there, he mentioned fearing something similar happening here.
 

Mitsui2

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So wanting a better society is akin to genocide?
There's a hell of a difference between "wanting a better society" and the sort of Utopianism that Nemesiscorproration discusses in the OP.

I do think that calling it "fascist" might be imprecise, in that strictly speaking fascism, while extreme, is only one manifestation of the tendency.
 

ruserious

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The imposed technocracies in Europe is equally a dangerous development.
 

Asparagus

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The reason democracy works is because it is imperfect and can assimilate the imperfections in human beings.

Utopia's do not work because they are perfect societies which would only suit automated machines, not imperfect human beings.

A perfect society would be fleeting at best, as it would literally have to start exterminating large sections of its population to keep them within predefined parameters.

Democracy works best, because it allows human beings to have no parameters, but still be a part of social or not be a part of society, if they wish.
Democracy works... ? Look around... This monumental global crisis is due to the unrestrained greed allowed by people giving there uninformed consent to blackguards and con men.
The net result will be far worse than ww2.
And look at the rhetoric, the us, the french, the greeks have long vaunted democracy as a utopia. But Equality, fraternity, liberty don't map to this totalitarian eu nightmare that we live in. So we come out with "democracy is better than the alternatives"
It is clearly not.
Our children are undergoing an evolution, the likes of which has never been seen. We think we are preparing the world for them but we are building inefficiencies and redundancy that they will wipe out. Our children will revolutionise the world for a digital, connected era and all the social structures we force upon them will be laid to waste.
 

Asparagus

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We seem to be taking a bit of a detour - over past 100 years the wealthy have grown wealthier and the rest have grown less self-sufficient, poorer in relative terms and appear to have become more like worker bees serving a Queen Bee than sentient beings.
Like I said we fail because of greed.
 

Sense 0f Wonder

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Agree with most of the OP, EXCEPT I believe that the transfer of wealth from the ordinary people to the financial establishment that has been seen in Ireland and across Europe is recent years *IS* a form of fascism.

To be more exact, IMO, we are living in the sort of coporatist Europe that Mussolini desired.

That far-right parties like Golden Dawn arise in response to this state of affairs is ironic, IMO, because the fascism is right here, right now... and because corporatism has widespread media and state approval, people seem to think it's OK.

The corporatism extends all the way from quislings like Kenny all the way to psychopaths like Sarkozy (not missed in this house) and ideologues like Merkel.

So, while there is a kind of street thug element rising in response to austerity and whatnot, for me, they are little more than an afterthought in the big scheme of things.. because the fascists are in power already.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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The imposed technocracies in Europe is equally a dangerous development.
I agree.

I am a supporter of a federal Europe, but the imposed technocratic governments, is something I vehemently oppose and consider to be illegal and undemocratic.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Berlesconi. I know he is a lunatic who is unfit for government, but if the Italian people choose an idiot to destroy there country, then that is there democratic choice and it should be respected.
 

ruserious

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Like I said we fail because of greed.
Greed is part of the human condition. It becomes an imperative to design a system that incorporates greed and uses it to society's advantage.
 

Asparagus

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Greed is part of the human condition. It becomes an imperative to design a system that incorporates greed and uses it to society's advantage.
We also succeed because of greed.

Maybe we need to design a system that focusses greed.
 

ruserious

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We also succeed because of greed.

Maybe we need to design a system that focusses greed.
We have; capitalism.

In this instance, we need to have bulwarks against the poorest in society suffering.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Full reserve banking. Or none.
 

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