"The War of Independence"

32

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Twice today I came across the provisonals making a reference to the Tan War as the 'War of Independence'.

Once was in town (Dublin) earlier (OSF were handing out leaflets with this printed on it), the second time was Pearse Doherty speaking on RTE Radio's 'Drivetime' at about 5.40 or so.

In my time with the provos this term would never have been used. (Then again, in those days the 26 county 'government' was refered to as the Dublin Government, and not the 'Irish Government' as most PSF'ers refer to the State now)

Is this typical of the general malaise that seems to be creeping in? It's not my intention to start another 'provo bash' thread, but I am curious as to how this laziness is setting in. Is it lack of education? Is it that the provos simply want to see the 26 county state shoved northwards?
 


32

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PS Didn't mean to post this in the FF section, apologies moderators.
 

The Analyser

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No. It is because they are growing up and leaving republican cloud cuckooland behind.
 

32

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The Analyser said:
No. It is because they are growing up and leaving republican cloud cuckooland behind.

I agree with the first bit of your statement!
 

Libero

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<Moderator (Libero)> Since this is a topic about members of Sinn Féin (or 'provisionals'), I'm plopping it into this forum.

I honestly don't think it's trolling. Changing language, if that's what is happening, is interesting.</Moderator>
 

32

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Libero said:
<Moderator (Libero)> Since this is a topic about members of Sinn Féin (or 'provisionals'), I'm plopping it into this forum.

I honestly don't think it's trolling. Changing language, if that's what is happening, is interesting.</Moderator>

Thanks Libero, and apologies for putting it into the wrong forum.

And let me reassure Shinners that I'm not doing this to stir things up - I just find it interesting
 

32

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Jaysus lads, not one reply??

Youse will be refering the the British occupiued six counties as 'Northern Ireland' next.
 

cain1798

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I obviously wasn't aware how burning an issue it is 32.

I'd generally refer to it as the Tan War, more through habit than anything else. That's also generally what it's referred to by republicans. I've heard SF people refer to it as the War of Independence in conversation very rarely and never been that bothered.

But I've lost count of the amount of times, in conversations with non-political people that might touch on Irish history, where I've referred to the 'Tan War' and been asked to explain what I'm talking about. Mention the War of Independence to people and they know what you're talking about instantly. It's also the commonly accepted term so it's hardly surprising some republicans might use it in dealing with the public.

No doubt, this is another sign of Sinn Féin doing whatever it is anti-SF republicans are accusing us of doing this week. Youse have little enough to be upsetting yourselves with.
 

32

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cain1798 said:
I obviously wasn't aware how burning an issue it is 32.

I'd generally refer to it as the Tan War, more through habit than anything else. That's also generally what it's referred to by republicans. I've heard SF people refer to it as the War of Independence in conversation very rarely and never been that bothered.

But I've lost count of the amount of times, in conversations with non-political people that might touch on Irish history, where I've referred to the 'Tan War' and been asked to explain what I'm talking about. Mention the War of Independence to people and they know what you're talking about instantly. It's also the commonly accepted term so it's hardly surprising some republicans might use it in dealing with the public.

No doubt, this is another sign of Sinn Féin doing whatever it is anti-SF republicans are accusing us of doing this week. Youse have little enough to be upsetting yourselves with.

Firstly, I appreciate your reply Cain, you are on of the few Shinners willing to address others.

Let me be very clear - I didn't start this thread to bash Sinn Féin. I Have been unambigious about that.

Whilst I accept your point about modifying language depending on who you're talking too, there is a big difference between doing this in a conversation and printing or publishing it. I suspect the real reason that this phrase was used was because it was on Adams' (the auctioneers) literature. RTE made this lazy mistake also. Another reason is possibly to present SF as being from the same gen pool as FF in a bid to win transfers.
That is only my own opinion, I'm not accusing ye of this. It's just that subtle shifts in language always make alarm bells ring for me. Whilst the nuance may be lost on some, I'm sure Cain it's not lost on you and other Shinners.

I remember the time that the phrase 'war of independence' would've been anathema to republicans, but it seems that a new breed of young turks don't seem to mind.

Would it bother you if OSF had a campaign using the phrase 'Northern Ireland'? After all, going on your own logic this term is more widely used than the 6 counties.
 

Cael

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32 said:
Jaysus lads, not one reply??

Youse will be refering the the British occupiued six counties as 'Northern Ireland' next.
Factual already does. When you accept English Crown law as legitimate and cast the Law of the Republic aside as illegitimate, then you have to modify your language to justify your position. So "Crown law" becomes "The Law", the occupied six counties become "Northern Ireland", the Crown occupation forces become the "security forces" or "an accountable police force." The 26 county free state (or statelet as An Phoblacht used to call it) becomes "The Republic of Ireland" and Irish Republican Revolutionaries become "dissidents."
 

32

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Cael said:
32 said:
Jaysus lads, not one reply??

Youse will be refering the the British occupiued six counties as 'Northern Ireland' next.
Factual already does. When you accept English Crown law as legitimate and cast the Law of the Republic aside as illegitimate, then you have to modify your language to justify your position. So "Crown law" becomes "The Law", the occupied six counties become "Northern Ireland", the Crown occupation forces become the "security forces" or "an accountable police force." The 26 county free state (or statelet as An Phoblacht used to call it) becomes "The Republic of Ireland" and Irish Republican Revolutionaries become "dissidents."


That indeed seems to be the case Cael. The silence of the many PSF people on this board says it all.

Btw in 1923 we were called 'irregulars'! :D
 

limey

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Cael said:
32 said:
Jaysus lads, not one reply??

Youse will be refering the the British occupiued six counties as 'Northern Ireland' next.
Factual already does. When you accept English Crown law as legitimate and cast the Law of the Republic aside as illegitimate, then you have to modify your language to justify your position. So "Crown law" becomes "The Law", the occupied six counties become "Northern Ireland", the Crown occupation forces become the "security forces" or "an accountable police force." The 26 county free state (or statelet as An Phoblacht used to call it) becomes "The Republic of Ireland" and Irish Republican Revolutionaries become "dissidents."
You could just imagine the conversation, "Look lads we're in government, we don't want to rock the boat or himself will be giving out (Big Ian)" Call the feckin thing Northern Ireland" "We know we don't mean it, do it for the votes"

Before long the footsoldiers are using the PC names it becomes the only acceptable name. SF'ers will have more in common with the British than other republicans, those scourges of democracy.

This new wave student arty type SF is after going insane, I honestly never thought I'd see the day, republicanism is a laughing stock, we fell for it hook, line and sinker.
 

32

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limey said:
Cael said:
32 said:
Jaysus lads, not one reply??

Youse will be refering the the British occupiued six counties as 'Northern Ireland' next.
Factual already does. When you accept English Crown law as legitimate and cast the Law of the Republic aside as illegitimate, then you have to modify your language to justify your position. So "Crown law" becomes "The Law", the occupied six counties become "Northern Ireland", the Crown occupation forces become the "security forces" or "an accountable police force." The 26 county free state (or statelet as An Phoblacht used to call it) becomes "The Republic of Ireland" and Irish Republican Revolutionaries become "dissidents."
You could just imagine the conversation, "Look lads we're in government, we don't want to rock the boat or himself will be giving out (Big Ian)" Call the feckin thing Northern Ireland" "We know we don't mean it, do it for the votes"

Before long the footsoldiers are using the PC names it becomes the only acceptable name. SF'ers will have more in common with the British than other republicans, those scourges of democracy.

This new wave student arty type SF is after going insane, I honestly never thought I'd see the day, republicanism is a laughing stock, we fell for it hook, line and sinker.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

However, the danger of this is lost on Cain (he's the only one to bother replying, fair play to him) who thinks that this is just another 'dissident' plot to pick holes in what the Shinners are up to today.

Let's examine some shifts in language over the years:

No decommissioning = arms put beyond use.
Dublin / Free State / 26 Co. Government = 'Irish' Government.
Tan War = 'War of independence'
Brits out = an Ireland of equals

And the most obvious of all is:

A 32 County Democratic, Socialist Republic = A United Ireland.

This is not me making things up. This is a genuine shift in language by former comrades. This is the rot setting in big time. Why do I mention the above at all? Because I would like the many genuine republicans who still remain in PSF to stand back a bit and try to understand how all these small
things will eventually add up.
 

st333ve

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Shifts in language? is every single word now being picked through in search of minor faults?
What are your own parties doing to give you the right to critisis the only real republican party in Ireland?

How about calling it the modernisation of played out catchphrases that mean nothing anymore to the mind of your average person today.
Like "UNITED IRELAND".
Why should Sinn Fein use this term everytime when no-one on earth knows the precise details of what form this would take as no documents of information on the subject have been put through the dail.

Republicanism is only a laughing stock to the cowards of the ROI who celebrate the easter rising, a time when the irish turned their own capital city to rubble, killed their own families and won a partitioned ireland and a free state so caught up in licking britains arse that it resembles nothing of what the people of the time where expecting to achieve.

It suits those who realistically want to do nothing to bad mouth the republicans in the north, its your "look were republicans but we dont bother being active because Sinn Fein.... decided to go the road of the ballot.... support policing... said a few phrases wrong"

So sit on ur sofa and bitch and yap about real republicans, after all your state shot all your own republicans down there for continuing an armed struggle and now youre complaing Sinn Fein gave up their arms, wtf?

Thers no pleasing the grannies in the bra and knicker factory..

Republicans in the north are doing all the work, all those in the ROI will have to do when the time comes is tick a box on a referendum paper.
And i even have my doubts that yiz are capable of that!
 

32

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st333ve said:
Shifts in language? is every single word now being picked through in search of minor faults?
What are your own parties doing to give you the right to critisis the only real republican party in Ireland?

How about calling it the modernisation of played out catchphrases that mean nothing anymore to the mind of your average person today.
Like "UNITED IRELAND".
Why should Sinn Fein use this term everytime when no-one on earth knows the precise details of what form this would take as no documents of information on the subject have been put through the dail.

Republicanism is only a laughing stock to the cowards of the ROI who celebrate the easter rising, a time when the irish turned their own capital city to rubble, killed their own families and won a partitioned ireland and a free state so caught up in licking britains arse that it resembles nothing of what the people of the time where expecting to achieve.

It suits those who realistically want to do nothing to bad mouth the republicans in the north, its your "look were republicans but we dont bother being active because Sinn Fein.... decided to go the road of the ballot.... support policing... said a few phrases wrong"

So sit on ur sofa and bitch and yap about real republicans, after all your state shot all your own republicans down there for continuing an armed struggle and now youre complaing Sinn Fein gave up their arms, wtf?

Thers no pleasing the grannies in the bra and knicker factory..

Republicans in the north are doing all the work, all those in the ROI will have to do when the time comes is tick a box on a referendum paper.
And i even have my doubts that yiz are capable of that!


I really don't know where to begin with you.

Firstly, I don't sit on my sofa. You don't know what I do. But I know that you think that the Free State army can come 50 miles in the 6 counties. What republican credentials have you got, if any, since you question mine?

Secondly, I'm an Irish Republican, and I don't recognise the border, or unlike yourself. And I don't recognise the Free State or vote for parties who do. Again unlike yourself. Given that, what does it matter what part of Ireland I'm from?

Thirdly, just reread all you have written and remember this. You came out on the wrong side of the border after partition. There was no 'war for independence'. There was partition. PSF are merely playing the same game as the Brits.

And the beautiful irony of it is that they have cheerleaders like you mixing up their arguments and attempting to obfuscate the position of those who disagree with their current partionist position.
 

st333ve

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Well refusing to recognise the realities, good or bad and refusing to vote for parties capable of change is all good for your morals, but how will this approach ever bring about any change?
 

edifice.

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st333ve said:
Well refusing to recognise the realities, good or bad and refusing to vote for parties capable of change is all good for your morals, but how will this approach ever bring about any change?
But you have sacrificed the attainment of the change republicans wanted for the change that popularity might bring you.
 

32

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st333ve said:
Well refusing to recognise the realities, good or bad and refusing to vote for parties capable of change is all good for your morals, but how will this approach ever bring about any change?


Ah, the classic question.

Maybe I can't give you an a la carte instant alternative, but I can gaurentee you this:

Change, real social democratic change, will not come about by recognising
6 county law, courts and order. Nor will it come about by ditching previous
positions, slaughtering sacred cows if you like, shifts in language, because
it appeals to the masses. This isn't Big Brother or the Eurovision.

Just because the Shinners are sailing high in elections means nothing in the realpolitik, because the following is the reality:

Ian Paisley is now happy to be first minister in 'his' country.
Bertie Ahern and Blair are happy to be rid of the 'problem'.
Adams and McGuinness tell us this will lead to change.

How?
 

32

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merle haggard said:
try using the term "war for independence", as neither "the tan war" or "war of independence" are factually accurate . Both are misleading terms .


But can you see the shift in language Merle?

Only about 12 months ago Danny Morrison, the poet laureate of the provisionals, was preaching in Daily Ireland that his disciples were to use the term 'tan war' rather than 'war of independence'
 


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