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The Writing is on the Wall: Fine Gael setting us up for handing over Tax raising Powers to Brussels - The New Babylon

Catahualpa

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Ireland can’t just keep saying “no” on corporate tax reform. Having held out against European Union reform proposals for many years – supported by the UK – the writing is now on the wall. Change is on the way and this carries some danger for Irish tax revenues and the model of attracting US investment here. The scale of this threat is not yet clear and recent years have shown us how reform can sometimes benefit Ireland too. But such is the momentum now towards reform that, realistically, we have no option but to get on board
.


Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe set out the strategy in an important speech during the week. The implicit point was that it is better for Ireland to be a participant in this process and “inside the room” when the big decisions are being made, rather than trying to stop the tide coming in.

So its over Folks - once the UK is out of the EU the Wolves will move in for the Kill...

Ireland will be told where the real Power lies when it comes to Tax raising powers

- and it wont be in Dublin.

Of course we will see fluff pieces galore [as in above] to prep the public for the inevitable change - how we must get on board and on message and stop being so selfish etc etc

The end result of course there will be no particular reason for any multinational to set up here in the 1st place

- as they wont be any better off setting up shop here over anywhere else in the EU

- so they wont.

We will end up like the North

- and Economic Protectorate of a more powerful political entity.



 
Last edited:


parentheses

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This will set the cat among the pigeons.

The MNCs have been the main drivers of the Irish economy for a good while.
 

Ireniall

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Ireland can’t just keep saying “no” on corporate tax reform. Having held out against European Union reform proposals for many years – supported by the UK – the writing is now on the wall. Change is on the way and this carries some danger for Irish tax revenues and the model of attracting US investment here. The scale of this threat is not yet clear and recent years have shown us how reform can sometimes benefit Ireland too. But such is the momentum now towards reform that, realistically, we have no option but to get on board
.


Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe set out the strategy in an important speech during the week. The implicit point was that it is better for Ireland to be a participant in this process and “inside the room” when the big decisions are being made, rather than trying to stop the tide coming in.

So its over Folks - once the UK is out of the EU the Wolves will move in for the Kill...

Ireland will be told where the real Power lies when it comes to Tax raising powers

- and it wont be in Dublin.

Of course we will see fluff pieces galore [as in above] to prep the public for the inevitable change - how we must get on board and on message and stop being so selfish etc etc

The end result of course there will be no particular reason for any multinational to set up here in the 1st place

- as they wont be any better off setting up shop here over anywhere else in the EU

- so they wont.

We will end up like the North

- and Economic Protectorate of a more powerful political entity.



Unlike our nearest neighbour Ireland does not need to be told where the real power lies and , no , it will come as no surprise to most of us that it is not in Dublin. However , before we ring up Intel and tell them to f**k off back home, let's try to not lose the ceann completely. Firstly it is quite obvious that our tax rate cannot carry on with the differential it has at the moment. Furthermore I think it would be morally wrong to force other countries to lower theirs in order to better compete with us. We are therefore going to have to rise ours to close the gap. Clearly the problem will arise if they insist that the gap should be closed entirely. I would doubt that this will happen except on such a long time scale as to be of little concern to us. They've not even started to address this yet. Secondly -the British haven't left the EU yet though at this stage it might be better for us if they did.
 

toughbutfair

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The blasted CCCTB will be back on the agenda post Brexit. That is basically a way of shifting the tax burden towards the country where the customer is , which suits France and Germany.
 

owedtojoy

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Ireland can’t just keep saying “no” on corporate tax reform. Having held out against European Union reform proposals for many years – supported by the UK – the writing is now on the wall. Change is on the way and this carries some danger for Irish tax revenues and the model of attracting US investment here. The scale of this threat is not yet clear and recent years have shown us how reform can sometimes benefit Ireland too. But such is the momentum now towards reform that, realistically, we have no option but to get on board
.


Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe set out the strategy in an important speech during the week. The implicit point was that it is better for Ireland to be a participant in this process and “inside the room” when the big decisions are being made, rather than trying to stop the tide coming in.

So its over Folks - once the UK is out of the EU the Wolves will move in for the Kill...

Ireland will be told where the real Power lies when it comes to Tax raising powers

- and it wont be in Dublin.

Of course we will see fluff pieces galore [as in above] to prep the public for the inevitable change - how we must get on board and on message and stop being so selfish etc etc

The end result of course there will be no particular reason for any multinational to set up here in the 1st place

- as they wont be any better off setting up shop here over anywhere else in the EU

- so they wont.

We will end up like the North

- and Economic Protectorate of a more powerful political entity.



Hard facts are hard facts .... it is a tough world, and we have to be smarter than the next guy to get ahead.

Companies don't come here just for the tax breaks, and if all things are equal, a smart workforce and world-class infrastructure will have to do it for us.
 

Barroso

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3,969
...
So its over Folks - once the UK is out of the EU the Wolves will move in for the Kill...

Ireland will be told where the real Power lies when it comes to Tax raising powers

- and it wont be in Dublin.

Of course we will see fluff pieces galore [as in above] to prep the public for the inevitable change - how we must get on board and on message and stop being so selfish etc etc

The end result of course there will be no particular reason for any multinational to set up here in the 1st place

- as they wont be any better off setting up shop here over anywhere else in the EU

- so they wont.

We will end up like the North

- and Economic Protectorate of a more powerful political entity.
While I understand the benefits of having the likes of Pfizer and Intel here, just what do we get out of Google, Microsoft, Yahoo etc?

A huge proportion of the work they do is localisation and telesales, which means their workers are imported, many thousands of them, which is one of the main causes of the housing shortage in Dublin. And because some of these companies only offer short-term contracts, there is a constant stream of people arriving looking for housing and pushing up rents as a result.
These multinationals do not pay any relevant amount of tax here, meaning that they do not pay to provide the services required by these immigrants (or by their Irish employees, either).

I am not unhappy with us providing a location for companies that employ mostly Irish people, but I can see no reason to be an offshore platform where all the benefits go to the companies, but where we are left to cope with the problems.

This is not a tirade against immigrants, it is an attempt at discussing the benefits to us of allowing MNCs set up here willy-nilly regardless of their benefit to us as a society when they make effectively no contribution via taxes paid to our society, and leave us to pick up the pieces.
 

redneck

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Electing F.G TD's to Europe is not a good idea. FFg will not stand up for Ireland. Their real leaders are Sir Jeffrey Donaldson and Denis O Brien.
I wonder will the Irish people especially those on the border come to regret sending McGuinness, Walsh and others back?
 

Barroso

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The blasted CCCTB will be back on the agenda post Brexit. That is basically a way of shifting the tax burden towards the country where the customer is , which suits France and Germany.
True, but it is also a result of Ireland Inc. facilitating tax evasion by MNCs over a period of decades.
We need an economic model that is based on our resources, not on fly-by-night MNCs.
 

wombat

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We need an economic model that is based on our resources, not on fly-by-night MNCs.
The pharma companies have been here almost 50 years, not really fly by nights. The problem is not with transfer pricing by multinational manufacturers but by the IT sector. The large EU countries want them to pay taxes where they generate business, i.e. in France and Germany rather than where they provide the services, Ireland. It gets complicated because the U.S. companies eventually move the cash back home where the U.S. taxes them. The OECD are trying to frame a treaty acceptable to the U.S and E.U.
 

Barroso

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The pharma companies have been here almost 50 years, not really fly by nights. The problem is not with transfer pricing by multinational manufacturers but by the IT sector. The large EU countries want them to pay taxes where they generate business, i.e. in France and Germany rather than where they provide the services, Ireland. It gets complicated because the U.S. companies eventually move the cash back home where the U.S. taxes them. The OECD are trying to frame a treaty acceptable to the U.S and E.U.
I specifically stated that I was not against pharma (ok, I said Pfizer) and Intel - they produce here.
I also stated that the IT service sector was the problem, in that they do not pay tax; however, it has been shown that these companies NEVER move the cash home to the US, so they never pay tax on it there either.
They are essentially leeches on the body of Ireland, and theoretically provide employment here - but a great deal of this employment is imported because, logically, Irish people cannot speak to Poles, Romanians, Germans etc in their own languages, and so cannot provide customer services to them or do telesales.
IMO the government should buy in the services of some agency to do a cost-benefit analysis on these companies. The agency should not be Irish, as there could be a conflict of interest, and obviously not US which is where the tech MNCs are from. But we seriously need to rethink our approach to non-productive companies setting up here.
 

wombat

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I think the benefits from having the likes of Google or Facebook here is questionable, especially when we have a housing shortage but all their employees pay tax here, so its probably worth having them and a large number of Irish people also work for them. Data centres on the other hand are of no benefit to anyone other than windfarm operators, the rest of us get caught with the carbon fines from the backup power.
 

PBP voter

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The Brits were great at frustrating the EU project of greater ever Union.

They were a major player who could block stuff.

They are a big lose to us in that respect.

We need to club together with the smaller nations to get this sort of thing stopped
 

brughahaha

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The Brits were great at frustrating the EU project of greater ever Union.

They were a major player who could block stuff.

They are a big lose to us in that respect.

We need to club together with the smaller nations to get this sort of thing stopped

We do ....but not a chance of it happening. Our golden circles , once bought ,stay bought
 

owedtojoy

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What is this "New Babylon" shyte anyway?

What was wrong with the old one?
 

Catahualpa

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Hard facts are hard facts .... it is a tough world, and we have to be smarter than the next guy to get ahead.

Companies don't come here just for the tax breaks, and if all things are equal, a smart workforce and world-class infrastructure will have to do it for us.
The nature of Business is Profit

Companies set up shop here because they believe they can best maximise their Profits in this State

- through our low tax Regime

Nothing we have in our basket matches this one

Without it they will buy their matches elsewhere....
 
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Lumpy Talbot

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No
Sense of deja vu on reading this thread. I recall saying on a Brexit thread that my feeling was that as soon as Brexit is past and done that tax 'harmonisation' would be seriously back on the Brussels agenda.

'Harmonisation' in that outliers in corporation tax in the EU would come under the spotlight; and of course Ireland wouldn't be the ones setting the harmonised rate.

But I have to say I'm surprised that they are going this early with it. Mind you, all bets are off in politics when it comes to Brexit.

Although I did think that this issue wouldn't come before the Qualified Majority Voting had lessened the ability of outliers to veto any change.
 

kerdasi amaq

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So, the EU is not worried about collecting on their debts?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Wonder when the EU apparatus is scheduled to acquire direct taxing rights, legally.

Not for everything of course as it would be likely to be established in a small way and then the legal route would be clear for the inevitable expansion of the EU's taxing role.

'State and Federal' taxes would be born ...
 

brughahaha

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Wonder when the EU apparatus is scheduled to acquire direct taxing rights, legally.

Not for everything of course as it would be likely to be established in a small way and then the legal route would be clear for the inevitable expansion of the EU's taxing role.

'State and Federal' taxes would be born ...

As Junker said ..."when they say yes we continue when they say no we carry on"
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Something small that caught my eye on reading the OP was the mention of UK support for Ireland's 'avoidance' strategy. I wonder why the UK in particular support the Irish defensive position. I doubt it is down to being right neighbourly.

Could be a general stance against EU tax harmonisation plan for specific technical and economic reasons of their own, but if it isn't philosophical objection I wonder what their dog in that fight looks like.
 


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