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Theobald Wolfe Tone


Billy the Prod

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Theobald Wolfe Tone (1763-1798) was born of the Protestant ascendancy class in Ireland. He was also a rebel, one of the founding members of the United Irishmen, and is regarded as the father of modern Irish Republicanism. He organized a convention of elected delegates that forced Parliament to pass the Catholic Relief Act of 1793, and staged a rebellion against British rule in Ireland in 1798. He was captured by British forces in Donegal and taken prisoner. Before Tone was due to be executed he attempted suicide and consequently died from his wounds a week later, thus avoiding being hanged for his involvement in the 1798 rebellion.

Some of his quotes:

"To subvert the tyranny of our execrable government, to break the connection with England, the never-failing source of all our political evils and to assert the independence of my country - these were my objectives. To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of all past dissensions, and to substitute the common name of Irishman in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter - these were my means."

"If the men of property will not support us, they must fall. Our strength shall come from that great and respectable class, the men of no property".

As can be garnered from his sentiments, Tone, although a Protestant, recognised the oppression and injustices inflicted upon the indigenous Irish Catholic people by the British ruling class, and wanted nothing more than to discontinue British rule in Ireland with the aim of creating an egalitarian Ireland independent of the British crown, and one where "Protestant, Catholic, and Dissenter" could live in peace and harmony and as equals.

I ask you, what was wrong with that attitude then? And what is wrong with it now?
 

ticketyboo

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Theobald Wolfe Tone (1763-1798) was born of the Protestant ascendancy class in Ireland. He was also a rebel, one of the founding members of the United Irishmen, and is regarded as the father of modern Irish Republicanism. He organized a convention of elected delegates that forced Parliament to pass the Catholic Relief Act of 1793, and staged a rebellion against British rule in Ireland in 1798. He was captured by British forces in Donegal and taken prisoner. Before Tone was due to be executed he attempted suicide and consequently died from his wounds a week later, thus avoiding being hanged for his involvement in the 1798 rebellion.

Some of his quotes:

"To subvert the tyranny of our execrable government, to break the connection with England, the never-failing source of all our political evils and to assert the independence of my country - these were my objectives. To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of all past dissensions, and to substitute the common name of Irishman in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter - these were my means."

"If the men of property will not support us, they must fall. Our strength shall come from that great and respectable class, the men of no property".

As can be garnered from his sentiments, Tone, although a Protestant, recognised the oppression and injustices inflicted upon the indigenous Irish Catholic people by the British ruling class, and wanted nothing more than to discontinue British rule in Ireland with the aim of creating an egalitarian Ireland independent of the British crown, and one where "Protestant, Catholic, and Dissenter" could live in peace and harmony and as equals.

I ask you, what was wrong with that attitude then? And what is wrong with it now?
Answer - nothing wrong with it then or now.
Unfortunately from my perspective, and I don't wish to get into a yah-boo match with unionist posters here, for the simple reason that it doesn't help my aspiration or narrative, and with respect for the timelines of quotations, etc. In broad brush strokes, Britaish administration successfully played the orange card time after time to foster division between those, Catholic, Protestant and dissenter, as you point out, and played it very successfully.
Therefore "we are where we are" up to the present day. As I wish it were not so, Unionists desire that it is. All I can say is that in every measure I feel that the island and its inhabitants would be better served and its citizenship more relevant as a unified state, not withstanding the economic crisis we have undergone in recent years.
To rehash the civil disturbance and the violence serves no purpose to me personally. All I can say is that it was probably the inevitable consequence of the success of the orange card strategy.
Over to you, big lads.
 

Protestant/Catholic=Irish

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It must make uneasy reading for those that perpetrate the lies that Irish republicanism is a sectarian ideology.

If you are sectarian, you are betraying the founder and very principles of Irish republicanism.

Thankfully, the republican movement as a whole has always kept alive the spirit and beliefs of Theobald Wolfe Tone. To those in the extreme minority that called themselves republicans while holding a hatred of Protestants, some even going so far as acts like Kingsmills, I hope ye rot in hell with the members of the loyalist paramilitaries who practically based their whole ideology on sectarianism.
 

former wesleyan

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Be careful about defining " men of no property " as being the mass of Irish people. It was a reference to the vote being defined by property owning and not wealth. It took a letter in the IT from historian John A. Murphy to point out that the reference to " children " in the Proclamation had nothing to do with little people.
 

Ren84

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It must make uneasy reading for those that perpetrate the lies that Irish republicanism is a sectarian ideology.

If you are sectarian, you are betraying the founder and very principles of Irish republicanism.

Thankfully, the republican movement as a whole has always kept alive the spirit and beliefs of Theobald Wolfe Tone. To those in the extreme minority that called themselves republicans while holding a hatred of Protestants, some even going so far as acts like Kingsmills, I hope ye rot in hell with the members of the loyalist paramilitaries who practically based their whole ideology on sectarianism.
Precisely. Unionism is based exclusively on Protestant supremacy and hatred of Catholics. Republicanism is for all religions. This is displayed when unionist terrorists would deliberately target innocent Catholics in "revenge" for attacks by Republicans on the security services.
 

Billy the Prod

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In broad brush strokes, Britaish administration successfully played the orange card time after time to foster division between those, Catholic, Protestant and dissenter, as you point out, and played it very successfully.
Do you think that Protestants/Unionists (my people) are conscious of the fact that they were "planted" here (Ulster Plantation), so as to transplant a British population in Ireland that would remain loyal to the British crown, and that the British ruling elite then used the strategy of sectarian agitation to mobilise Protestant settlers in defence of British imperialism? I don't think they are. Their loyalty has been exploited and abused throughput the centuries, and today Britain, despite the GFA, would like nothing more than to excommunicate its loyal British citizens of Ulster.

It must make uneasy reading for those that perpetrate the lies that Irish republicanism is a sectarian ideology.

If you are sectarian, you are betraying the founder and very principles of Irish republicanism.
To be fair, I think that Republicanism did become distinctly sectarian in nature with the 68-94 PIRA campaign. Protestant people and their businesses were intentionally targeted. La Mon, Kingsmills and Enniskillen are just a few examples of the intentional sectarian targeting and assassination of Protestants by contemporary Republicans. The PIRA did not remain true to the philosophy and political ideals of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen when they intentionally singled out Protestants to murder.

Thankfully, the republican movement as a whole has always kept alive the spirit and beliefs of Theobald Wolfe Tone. To those in the extreme minority that called themselves republicans while holding a hatred of Protestants, some even going so far as acts like Kingsmills, I hope ye rot in hell with the members of the loyalist paramilitaries who practically based their whole ideology on sectarianism.
No it hasn't. As stated, contemporary Irish Republicanism under Adams and McGuinness deteriorated into sectarianism, even if they will never admit it. The Loyalist paramilitaries were simply responding to sectarianism with sectarianism of their own. I'm sorry, but contemporary Republicanism has not been immune to partisanship, and cannot therefore take the moral high ground, and you are right to condemn them.

Be careful about defining " men of no property " as being the mass of Irish people. It was a reference to the vote being defined by property owning and not wealth. It took a letter in the IT from historian John A. Murphy to point out that the reference to " children " in the Proclamation had nothing to do with little people.
Lol.

Precisely. Unionism is based exclusively on Protestant supremacy and hatred of Catholics. Republicanism is for all religions. This is displayed when unionist terrorists would deliberately target innocent Catholics in "revenge" for attacks by Republicans on the security services.
I don't know if Unionism is based on "hatred of Catholics". In N.I. Unionism is an ideology that favours the maintenance and strengthening of the political and cultural ties between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I have never read anywhere (other than here) that it is based upon hatred of Catholics. In fact contemporary Unionists keep telling us that Northern Ireland is a place for everyone, and regardless of their religion.

There is a tangible supremacy element among Orangemen, but not all Unionists/Protestants are members of the Orange Order. In fact, I have no time for the Orange Order, as most of their members are docile dunderheads.

Republicanism may have initially been for all religions, in the time of Tone, but I know for a fact that most Protestants today view Republicanism as sectarian in nature, and representing only one side. Not their side.

How do you think we can rectify that? The word "apology", and for 30 years of PIRA violence comes to mind ..

And the targeting of innocent Catholics in response to PIRA atrocities was something I was always totally opposed to as much as I was to PIRA violence. In Tone's day insurrection was romantic. Regrettably, not in the 20th.
 

former wesleyan

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Keep on sucking up to the CNR posters on here. you might get a few likes for your posts.:roll:
Should you not be hanging around the Tunnel looking for somebody to annoy ?
 

ticketyboo

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Do you think that Protestants/Unionists (my people) are conscious of the fact that they were "planted" here (Ulster Plantation), so as to transplant a British population in Ireland that would remain loyal to the British crown, and that the British ruling elite then used the strategy of sectarian agitation to mobilise Protestant settlers in defence of British imperialism? I don't think they are. Their loyalty has been exploited and abused throughput the centuries, and today Britain, despite the GFA, would like nothing more than to excommunicate its loyal British citizens of Ulster.



To be fair, I think that Republicanism did become distinctly sectarian in nature with the 68-94 PIRA campaign. Protestant people and their businesses were intentionally targeted. La Mon, Kingsmills and Enniskillen are just a few examples of the intentional sectarian targeting and assassination of Protestants by contemporary Republicans. The PIRA did not remain true to the philosophy and political ideals of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen when they intentionally singled out Protestants to murder.



No it hasn't. As stated, contemporary Irish Republicanism under Adams and McGuinness deteriorated into sectarianism, even if they will never admit it. The Loyalist paramilitaries were simply responding to sectarianism with sectarianism of their own. I'm sorry, but contemporary Republicanism has not been immune to partisanship, and cannot therefore take the moral high ground, and you are right to condemn them.



Lol.



I don't know if Unionism is based on "hatred of Catholics". In N.I. Unionism is an ideology that favours the maintenance and strengthening of the political and cultural ties between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I have never read anywhere (other than here) that it is based upon hatred of Catholics. In fact contemporary Unionists keep telling us that Northern Ireland is a place for everyone, and regardless of their religion.

There is a tangible supremacy element among Orangemen, but not all Unionists/Protestants are members of the Orange Order. In fact, I have no time for the Orange Order, as most of their members are docile dunderheads.

Republicanism may have initially been for all religions, in the time of Tone, but I know for a fact that most Protestants today view Republicanism as sectarian in nature, and representing only one side. Not their side.

How do you think we can rectify that? The word "apology", and for 30 years of PIRA violence comes to mind ..

And the targeting of innocent Catholics in response to PIRA atrocities was something I was always totally opposed to as much as I was to PIRA violence. In Tone's day insurrection was romantic. Regrettably, not in the 20th.
A long post, but to start. I can't agree that the Provisionals motive was sectarian in nature. In reality, there were some times when it got drawn into that, but it validates my point that Britain's strategy was to set native against planter, if we can put it thus. You mention Kingsmills. If memory serves, the justification for Kingsmills was that it was a desperate attempt to call a halt to Loyalist assassinations. the prelude to which was two families with five members being murdered in the previous days. Not saying that makes it right.
Others here and elsewhere point out that the Privisionals killed more Catholics than the British Army. The targeting of Derry city centre's commercial district could hardly be called deliberate attacks on Unioinsts, going by the demographic in Derry.
I'm still with Wolfe Tone in that Republicanism is for all religions(and none).
 

Billy the Prod

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Keep on sucking up to the CNR posters on here. you might get a few likes for your posts.:roll:
I'm not sucking up to anyone, and certainly not to CNR posters by constantly criticising PIRA violence.

Do you even read before you post? Obviously not.
 

former wesleyan

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Just as a matter of interest, where do people get their Tone from ? Moody ? I know that Anthony " No " Coughlan was threatening to publish a " what Tone really said ( and meant )" bio but I haven't seen it referred to.
 

Truth.ie

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A long post, but to start. I can't agree that the Provisionals motive was sectarian in nature. In reality, there were some times when it got drawn into that, but it validates my point that Britain's strategy was to set native against planter, if we can put it thus. You mention Kingsmills. If memory serves, the justification for Kingsmills was that it was a desperate attempt to call a halt to Loyalist assassinations. the prelude to which was two families with five members being murdered in the previous days. Not saying that makes it right.
Others here and elsewhere point out that the Privisionals killed more Catholics than the British Army. The targeting of Derry city centre's commercial district could hardly be called deliberate attacks on Unioinsts, going by the demographic in Derry.
I'm still with Wolfe Tone in that Republicanism is for all religions(and none).
To be fair, Derry City may be Nationalist in 2012, but in the 70's most of the businesses within the city centre would've been Unionist owned or major British stores like Wellworths, Woolworths, Littlewoods etc.
Bob Warwicks painting and decorating store on the Strand Road was bombed 21 times during the Troubles.
Bob was in the Apprentice Boys of Derry.
To be honest, i can see no other reason why his store was bombed 21 times.
There was an element of (maybe not sectarianism) but targetting of those who'd be seen as pro State.
Ironic that those behind the targetting are now part and parcel of the State.
 

Billy the Prod

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Oct 2, 2012
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A long post, but to start. I can't agree that the Provisionals motive was sectarian in nature. In reality, there were some times when it got drawn into that, but it validates my point that Britain's strategy was to set native against planter, if we can put it thus. You mention Kingsmills. If memory serves, the justification for Kingsmills was that it was a desperate attempt to call a halt to Loyalist assassinations. the prelude to which was two families with five members being murdered in the previous days. Not saying that makes it right.
Others here and elsewhere point out that the Privisionals killed more Catholics than the British Army. The targeting of Derry city centre's commercial district could hardly be called deliberate attacks on Unioinsts, going by the demographic in Derry.
I'm still with Wolfe Tone in that Republicanism is for all religions(and none).
It's very difficult to evade sectarianism in N.I. Even the Alliance party began political life as a moderate Unionist party, and although the Provisionals may have felt they were singularly attacking the British state and British crown forces; innocent, civilian Protestants who were targeted by them felt very differently.

Talk to Northern Irish Protestants on this forum. Listen to them. They are speaking from experience, and their views are just as valid as Republicans. A difference in perspective helps to broaden one's understanding of the conflict, and assists with the development of empathy. Both sides need to empathise, with each-other.
 

Truth.ie

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History buffs may be interested to know that Wolfe was arrested in Buncrana area, and briefly held in Derry Jail.
Where the Loyalist Fountain Estate now stands.
History is full of little ironies.
 

Murph

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If the anti nazi resistance volunteers who fire -bombed or shot the pro-nazi state collaborator businessmen -could or would their campaign be later judged as sectarian, on the basis that those they targeted were of a different religion.

And is this something we'd never consider asking, because the resistance movements happened to be on the winning side - the history writers?
 
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