Things hotting up in Catalunya (Original Thread)

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brughahaha

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With the German election , this one haunt received much media traction here , but on Sunday Catalunya is going to hold a referendum on Independence ....except the Madrid Government is threatening to arrest the Catalunyan President and has drafted in thousands of police officers to prevent the plebiscite taking place

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/25/spain-attorney-general-refuses-rule-out-arrest-catalan-president

Now it could be very easy to see this spiral out of control , while views on Independence are split 50/50 in catalunya most want a plebiscite on it ..and arresting the President (Puigdemont) or preventing the election could make a martyr out of the Independents .

Tensions wont be reduced if as he promises Puigdemont declares a UDI ......

Spains already seen the most recent attempted military coup in Europe (to my knowledge) and tensions run deep about the civil war and following dictatorship with the "pact of silence" fraying at the edges .... and the Basques , amongst others will be watching with interest

It also begs the question of how the EU wold handle it ...seems to me another lose/lose for the EU if things come to a head this Sunday or after
 


Northsideman

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With the German election , this one haunt received much media traction here , but on Sunday Catalunya is going to hold a referendum on Independence ....except the Madrid Government is threatening to arrest the Catalunyan President and has drafted in thousands of police officers to prevent the plebiscite taking place

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/25/spain-attorney-general-refuses-rule-out-arrest-catalan-president

Now it could be very easy to see this spiral out of control , while views on Independence are split 50/50 in catalunya most want a plebiscite on it ..and arresting the President (Puigdemont) or preventing the election could make a martyr out of the Independents .

Tensions wont be reduced if as he promises Puigdemont declares a UDI ......

Spains already seen the most recent attempted military coup in Europe (to my knowledge) and tensions run deep about the civil war and following dictatorship with the "pact of silence" fraying at the edges .... and the Basques , amongst others will be watching with interest

It also begs the question of how the EU wold handle it ...seems to me another lose/lose for the EU if things come to a head this Sunday or after
Well according to many Europhiles/Federalists and the USA Turkey is European and they had a coup.

But on your main point, the dam is now burst on this one and Madrid can't hold back the water, it's only a matter of time. Repression will speed it up not halt it.
 

razorblade

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Spain has to give them a democratic mandate to hold this referendum their stance is only going to turn even more Catalans towards independence.
 

GDPR

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At the moment there is not a majority of people in favour of an independent Catalonia but there is a majority in favour of being allowed to choose. The Spanish government has refused to negotiate with the Catalan government about the holding of a referendum, and that is the reason why they have decided to go it alone.

Now, the Spanish government has started to arrest people, confiscate ballot papers and bring large numbers of police and Guardia Civil into the region to try to stop the vote on the 1st October. This authoritarian stance will only increase the number of people in favour of independence.

The key player in all this is the Spanish Constitutional Court. Unfortunately this in reality is not independent and makes constitutional changes almost impossible. It is highly influenced by the PP, whose attitude isnt very different from the days of Franco.
 

brughahaha

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Well according to many Europhiles/Federalists and the USA Turkey is European and they had a coup.

But on your main point, the dam is now burst on this one and Madrid can't hold back the water, it's only a matter of time. Repression will speed it up not halt it.

Fair point ....and Im inclined to agree with you and if they get it the Basques will want it too .....could be a much smaller spain in 5 years ...the 'regions' already enjoy massive autonomy but with a very clear constitutional recognition of Spain as a single unit of a country.... so a federal spain doesn't seem achievable ...its either Spain ...or Independence

Country Im very fond of , great places , great people , great food and drink , great attitude to life ...wonderful celebration of regional differences makes it a joy to visit its different parts
 

L'Chaim

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I can't imagine the EU will be too happy with this development. Separatist movements all over Europe would come out of the woodwork to do the same as Catalonia. The EU would implode.
 

razorblade

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I can't imagine the EU will be too happy with this development. Separatist movements all over Europe would come out of the woodwork to do the same as Catalonia. The EU would implode.
If that is the case then good the EU needs to be brought crashing to the ground.
 

GDPR

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The present PP government in Madrid really are a nasty bunch. They are reactionary, "Catholic" in the worst sense, and eye-wateringly corrupt. The party was formed around an ex Franco minister Fraga.

This regressive government led by the demonstrably dirty Rajoy have inflamed the calls for independence rather than seeking dialogue.

In the words of their previous leader Aznar, ' What have I got to talk to the Catalans about ?'

The PP is profoundly undemocratic. They change the law to protect themselves, appoint and dismiss judges and in the face of clear corruption just block prosecutions. If you could imagine Fianna Fail on steroids, but ready to use the Army against civil protesters, you would be getting there.

Unfortunately, they more or less control the Constitutional Court, so any attempts to hold a legal Referendum on the basis of a judicial ruling stand no chance.
 

Northsideman

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If that is the case then good the EU needs to be brought crashing to the ground.
The EU needs to be brought back to what it was originally, an Economic Community for the benefit of all and not what it has become or worse still what the Federalists want it to be.
 

Northsideman

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The present PP government in Madrid really are a nasty bunch. They are reactionary, "Catholic" in the worst sense, and eye-wateringly corrupt. The party was formed around an ex Franco minister Fraga.

This regressive government led by the demonstrably dirty Rajoy have inflamed the calls for independence rather than seeking dialogue.

In the words of their previous leader Aznar, ' What have I got to talk to the Catalans about ?'

The PP is profoundly undemocratic. They change the law to protect themselves, appoint and dismiss judges and in the face of clear corruption just block prosecutions. If you could imagine Fianna Fail on steroids, but ready to use the Army against civil protesters, you would be getting there.

Unfortunately, they more or less control the Constitutional Court, so any attempts to hold a legal Referendum on the basis of a judicial ruling stand no chance.
Yes indeed and the EU that great bastion of morals and democracy does feck all.
 

brughahaha

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The present PP government in Madrid really are a nasty bunch. They are reactionary, "Catholic" in the worst sense, and eye-wateringly corrupt. The party was formed around an ex Franco minister Fraga.

This regressive government led by the demonstrably dirty Rajoy have inflamed the calls for independence rather than seeking dialogue.

In the words of their previous leader Aznar, ' What have I got to talk to the Catalans about ?'

The PP is profoundly undemocratic. They change the law to protect themselves, appoint and dismiss judges and in the face of clear corruption just block prosecutions. If you could imagine Fianna Fail on steroids, but ready to use the Army against civil protesters, you would be getting there.

Unfortunately, they more or less control the Constitutional Court, so any attempts to hold a legal Referendum on the basis of a judicial ruling stand no chance.

If as you claim , and i'm not disputing your claims , there is judicial interference and political corruption, how come they aren't experiencing the same Brussels wrath that Poland are ?

And on another point , Im sure Scotland will watch with great interest to see the EUs actions rather than its words on 'the plight of small nations'
 

Congalltee

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1) why does SF support a rich northern region wanting to separate from poor south?
2) the eu policy for Scotland was that the UK of GB& NI joined, not its constituent parts.
3) Spain and hungary do not recognise Kosovo, why would either they or the eu recognise a breakup within the EU?
 

Northsideman

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The next El Clasico could be very nasty indeed.
 

Dimples 77

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1) why does SF support a rich northern region wanting to separate from poor south?
2) the eu policy for Scotland was that the UK of GB& NI joined, not its constituent parts.
3) Spain and hungary do not recognise Kosovo, why would either they or the eu recognise a breakup within the EU?

Sinn Fein supports sectarian violence, not political principle.
 

Dimples 77

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Those sort of actions are only going to boost support for the independence movement even further.

This is going to be a big test for the EU.

Will it support the people involved, or will it back one of the leaders of a EU "nation"?

We're going to see which side the EU backs.
 

razorblade

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The next El Clasico could be very nasty indeed.
I really hope that fixture wont be a casualty of any potential breakaway Catalonian state, for the good of football that must never be allowed to happen regardless if Catalonia gets independence or not.
 
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