Things hotting up in Catalunya (Second Thread)

Northsideman

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The problem in Catalonia is just that, the strident/militant on all sides do seem to have the most influence and they don't seem too inclined to accept a referendum result they don't like. I've met a lot of people from that part of the world down the years, some Spanish migrants, some immigrants and some nationalists. They all share a common bond in a very strong dislike for how they believe Madrid treats them, as a source of cash for others. That to me is a starting point.

The all or nothing approach is massively divisive and with internal population changes it is not even guaranteed to be accepted. I think the type of Basque autonomy is a model they could look at for control of taxes and their own finances. I also reckon the independence move has to start out as a conversation, not as conflicting protests.

I'd also say anyone who is determined to pursue the independence route should take a good hard look at Brexit as a reminder of how a shambles of no detailed plan would work.
The all or nothing approach is a result of the way Madrid has treated the region from Franco to the present day. The spectacle of the Storm Troppers on the streets did little to win hearts and minds and certainly stirred up the young folk. All new independent countries are chaotic at birth but how many go back? It is only a matter of time, they will gain independence or a least a vote on it, then they can freely decide.
 


sic transit

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Its not possible to plan for these things in any exact way. Do you think George Washington or Michael Collins had a detailed plan or a Withdrawal Agreement? Do you think either of those patriots would have agreed to remain in the "customs union" of the former ruling power? That is not independence.

First you have to achieve your independence. Afterwards you make the treaty. Negotiate the peace and the trade deals.
No ruling power ever makes things easy for an independence movement.
I don't think we can use the 18th century or even the early 20th century for 21st century planning. The world is far more complex. The independence concept in Catalonia does not share universal support. They need to work towards that and avoid a Brexit mess. The declaration of independence showed all the hallmarks of Brexit with blithe, untested and probably unrealistic assumptions of a post-independence status.
 

sic transit

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The all or nothing approach is a result of the way Madrid has treated the region from Franco to the present day. The spectacle of the Storm Troppers on the streets did little to win hearts and minds and certainly stirred up the young folk. All new independent countries are chaotic at birth but how many go back? It is only a matter of time, they will gain independence or a least a vote on it, then they can freely decide.
Well they should do it by talking to the people who either oppose or are afraid of it. I think the Basques have been smarter about this concept. They are largely left to their own devices, send an agreed amount to Madrid and don't have to deal with all that legislative and administrative overhead involved in running a country.
 

recedite

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I don't think we can use the 18th century or even the early 20th century for 21st century planning. The world is far more complex. The independence concept in Catalonia does not share universal support. They need to work towards that and avoid a Brexit mess. The declaration of independence showed all the hallmarks of Brexit with blithe, untested and probably unrealistic assumptions of a post-independence status.
The way of the world is not much different, and the personalities and needs of people are always much the same. Plus ca change...

No independence movement ever had universal support.
 

Sync

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And so they created martyrs.

Nine Catalan separatist leaders have been cleared of violent rebellion over their roles in the failed bid for regional independence two years ago but found guilty of the lesser crimes of sedition and misuse of public funds.
The region’s former vice-president Oriol Junqueras was convicted of sedition and misuse of public funds by Spain’s supreme court, and sentenced to 13 years in prison. He was also banned from holding public office for 13 years.
The former Catalan foreign minister Raül Romeva was convicted of the same offence and sentenced to 12 years’ imprisonment and handed a 12-year ban on holding office, as were the former regional government spokesman Jordi Turull and the former labour minister Dolors Bassa.
Carme Forcadell, the former speaker of the Catalan parliament, was sentenced to 11 and a half years in prison, while the former Catalan interior minister Joaquim Forn and former territorial minister Josep Rull got 10 and a half years each.
 

Myers Mimnagh

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These lads might think twice before they try to pull a stunt like that again, in my opinion.
 

ProsandCons

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A passionate, intense, but deeply divided, fractious Country - always has and always will be.....Was reading a review of Jason Webster's latest book "Violencia" at the weekend and only realised that the Spanish National Anthem is one of only a handful that has no official lyrics - they can't agree on any that aren't too contentious !

I think Franco had some soothing lyrics during his time, but I don't think that version has been used since the late 1970s.........
 

toughbutfair

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Spain is essentially a fascist country and Franco still has lots of support. I know lots of Spanish folk, some good friends of mine but they all have strong fascist tendencies. Putting political opponents in jail is nothing new for them.
 

Ardillaun

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We have to devise peaceful mechanisms for changing borders. Countries are not eternal and war should not be the only mechanism for regions to escape from them.
 


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