Thinking the Unthinkable – Can We Reverse Our Surrender?

dresden8

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The question I posed was how do we deal with our deficit if we burn bank bondholders. And what I mean is where do we get our hands on 20bn a year to pay for public services - unless you favour halving PS pay and welfare rates.
Previously if you said bondholders were a supranational cabal of people who acted as one to control nation states and punish them in a "one for all" kind of deal you would have been considered a conspiracy nut, but now it seems to be normal.

Do you get a deal on "party sized" amounts of tinfoil?
 


D

Deleted member 17573

Previously if you said bondholders were a supranational cabal of people who acted as one to control nation states and punish them in a "one for all" kind of deal you would have been considered a conspiracy nut, but now it seems to be normal.

Do you get a deal on "party sized" amounts of tinfoil?
You´re still not answering my question - how are you going to deal with the deficit?
 

Doodah

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The pattern of the crisis shows points to the final result which is an EU equivalent of QE or money printing or currency devaluation as initiated by the US, with consequent inflation.
The current stage is sovereign asset-stripping to protect the Franco-German core in order to avoid this outcome.
The bail-out removes the option of decreasing taxes to remain competitive.
The only Irish option as articulated by the paid professionals (eg. Morgan "where's he gone?" Kelly) is to sit in the holding cell and watch and hope someone is nice to us- (following todays MEP display this is not going to happen).
We're waiting for a Franco-German initiated debt write-down or QE.
Ireland is in a post-surrender stage, so make the agreed cuts and try and hold onto jobs.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

May God forgive Cowen and Lenihan for the disgrace they have brought on our country.
90 years of self government and this is the only one that sold us out to foreigners.
Get a grip on the hysteria ffs - we got a loan, we´ve been borrowing for decades, what´s new?
 

dresden8

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You´re still not answering my question - how are you going to deal with the deficit?
Borrow without the anchor of the banks around our necks obviously.

Are you taking dumbass tablets?

We know that your mates in FF have told us the bond markets love their austerity measures.

Get with the programme dumbass.
 

vanla sighs

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I used to be very pro-EU years ago. Nice and Lisbon put that to bed more or less but the way we have been treated by our so-called European partners is a disgrace, they are impoverishing the pople of Ireland for their own financial gain. I for one will NEVER forgive them. I now hope the euro and the EU fall. I used to be a federalist, not any longer. I used to think we could introduce more democracy and a respect for small States to the EU - I don't think that is possible any longer. We have been betrayed by our own government and have had the knife turned by the EU. I hope the markets rip the euro to shreads.

I believe the only political parties who would tear up the agreement would be SF or the SP. FG and Labour may try to renegotiate but who knows, can't really believe what they say. As for FF, cowards and sell outs.
 
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dresden8

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I used to be very pro-EU years ago up until a few years ago. Lisbon put that to bed more or less but the way we have been treated by our so-called European partners is a disgrace, they are impoverishing the pople of Ireland for their own financial gain. I for one will NEVER forgive them. I now hope the euro and the EU fall. I used to be a federalist, not any longer. I used to think we could introduce more democracy and a respect for small States to the EU - I don't think that is possible any longer. We have been betrayed by our own government and have had the knife turned by the EU. I hope the markets rip the euro to shreads.

I believe the only political parties who would tear up the agreement would be SF or the SP. FG and Labour may try to renegotiate but who knows, can't really belive what they say. As for FF, cowards and sell outs.
FG and labour willing collaborators with FF.

Scum, absolute scum, all of them.

Time to wipe the slate clean.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Borrow without the anchor of the banks around our necks obviously.

Are you taking dumbass tablets?

We know that your mates in FF have told us the bond markets love their austerity measures.

Get with the programme dumbass.
Right - now I have it. We default and then just toddle out and start borrowing afresh - any chance you´d introduce me to your bank manager? Did it not register with you what caused the final jump in bonds? It was Merkel mentioning the possibility of sharing the pain in the future - and the markets went ape-sh1t, just on the threat that we might default on some new loans at some future date. How do you think they would react if we actually defaulted on existing loans?
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Look! I just don't accept that! :roll:
Then you´re in denial - not a single reputable economist has ever countenanced a default - a few would consider defaulting on subordinated debt but no more than that.
 

dresden8

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Right - now I have it. We default and then just toddle out and start borrowing afresh - any chance you´d introduce me to your bank manager? Did it not register with you what caused the final jump in bonds? It was Merkel mentioning the possibility of sharing the pain in the future - and the markets went ape-sh1t, just on the threat that we might default on some new loans at some future date. How do you think they would react if we actually defaulted on existing loans?
Investor will invest where they can make money.

Any suggestion that they are one unique group, an illuminati or a new world order as such, where they will treat the hurt of one as the hurt of all, should be treated with the contempt that all such conspiracy theories are treated.

Or are conspiracy theories mainstream now? Maybe you believe the lizards want to punish us?
 

slx

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Right - now I have it. We default and then just toddle out and start borrowing afresh - any chance you´d introduce me to your bank manager? Did it not register with you what caused the final jump in bonds? It was Merkel mentioning the possibility of sharing the pain in the future - and the markets went ape-sh1t, just on the threat that we might default on some new loans at some future date. How do you think they would react if we actually defaulted on existing loans?
They'd go ap€ $h1t for a while, but they'd get over it.

The banks were *not* part of our sovereign debt until FF+GP decided to completely underwrite them and effectively give them full access to Ireland's credit rating.

Despite the Government knowing the banks' track record, they took our credit rating, handed it over to the banks, who basically got it slightly dirty, then drove over it in their Mercs a few times, set it on fire and then peed on it!

We are now left with a bunch of worthless shells of banks and an utterly destroyed credit rating.

This was doing the right thing?!?!

I'd hate to see what FF doing the wrong thing would be like!
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Investor will invest where they can make money.

Any suggestion that they are one unique group, an illuminati or a new world order as such, where they will treat the hurt of on as the hurt of all, should be treated with the contempt that all such conspiracy theories are treated.

Or are conspiracy theories mainstream now? Maybe you believe the lizards want to punish us?
The reality is that they behave like a herd - and if they wanted to make an example of somebody, we would be the perfect target - they don´t need our business, we´re small fry. This idea that we can just glibly default and go straight back to the markets and get money at affordable rates is a dangerous myth. But, anyway, what you seem to be saying is that you would be happier to burn the bank bondholders and pay the markets some crazy rate - 15%, 20% - (how much, you tell me) for 50 bn to cover our budget deficit than take the 85 bn at 5.8%. This makes no sense - unless there is some ideology or agenda at play that you are keeping to yourself.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

They'd go ap€ $h1t for a while, but they'd get over it.

The banks were *not* part of our sovereign debt until FF+GP decided to completely underwrite them and effectively give them full access to Ireland's credit rating.

Despite the Government knowing the banks' track record, they took our credit rating, handed it over to the banks, who basically got it slightly dirty, then drove over it in their Mercs a few times, set it on fire and then peed on it!

We are now left with a bunch of worthless shells of banks and an utterly destroyed credit rating.

This was doing the right thing?!?!

I'd hate to see what FF doing the wrong thing would be like!
And what will we do for money while they´re getting over it? You´re still not telling me where we´ll go next June/July for 20bn
 

dresden8

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The reality is that they behave like a herd - and if they wanted to make an example of somebody, we would be the perfect target - they don´t need our business, we´re small fry. This idea that we can just glibly default and go straight back to the markets and get money at affordable rates is a dangerous myth. But, anyway, what you seem to be saying is that you would be happier to burn the bank bondholders and pay the markets some crazy rate - 15%, 20% - (how much, you tell me) for 50 bn to cover our budget deficit than take the 85 bn at 5.8%. This makes no sense - unless there is some ideology or agenda at play that you are keeping to yourself.
Ah, the illuminati will burn us to punish us.

Are tinfoil hats to be zero vat rated in the budget?
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Ah, the illuminati will burn us to punish us.

Are tinfoil hats to be zero vat rated in the budget?
Is that the best you can do? Notice you dodged the key question in my last post - good night!
 

slx

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And what will we do for money while they´re getting over it? You´re still not telling me where we´ll go next June/July for 20bn
Simple:

You slash spending and use the NPRF to tide us over until the situation has stabilized.

In the EU/IMF plan, we basically give the NPRF to the crooked banks!

It's a short, sharp, shock treatment rather than a painful, slow death by immersion in a bath of leeches who slowly suck our blood until we're a shriveled corps.

The bailout scenario nationalises the entire debts of the banking system and forces the tax payer into years, if not decades, of painful cuts and grinding poverty.

This isn't an acceptable solution by any means.

We simply do not have the resources to make the payments.

The bank guarantee has bankrupted the country. I fail to see how causing the state to fail rather than just coping with a bank failure is somehow supposed to be a better solution!
 

onlyasking

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I agree some people just don't want to face reality that we're being screwed and look at the EU as our savior , Lisbon 2 moved the power to the core and the core is protecting itself as it believes it is the EU.
It actually is the EU. The elite knows that the masses have general concerns, while they work the specifics that really matter.
 

dresden8

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Is that the best you can do? Notice you dodged the key question in my last post - good night!
Bye so.

Next time an ultra-national conspiracy of the rich are attacking a country I'll give you a shout to trot out your usual conspiracy theory crap.

Sleep well.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Simple:

You slash spending and use the NPRF to tide us over until the situation has stabilized.

In the EU/IMF plan, we basically give the NPRF to the crooked banks!

It's a short, sharp, shock treatment rather than a painful, slow death by immersion in a bath of leeches who slowly suck our blood until we're a shriveled corps.

The bailout scenario nationalises the entire debts of the banking system and forces the tax payer into years, if not decades, of painful cuts and grinding poverty.

This isn't an acceptable solution by any means.

We simply do not have the resources to make the payments.

The bank guarantee has bankrupted the country. I fail to see how causing the state to fail rather than just coping with a bank failure is somehow supposed to be a better solution!
Our funds would run out in mid-2011. Are you sure the bondholders would have gotten over their little hissy fit by then? If not, you better tell us how you´re going to cut 20 bn out of the budget.
 


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