Thinking the Unthinkable – Can We Reverse Our Surrender?

yellowfish

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I was discussing this at work the other day, this is not capitalism. Love it hate it or simply live in regular indifference to the systems we are forced to live within, this is not capitalism.
Margret thatcher, who to me will always be the arch capitalist would not have done this. For the same reason she let the mines and thousands of minors go to the wall she would (If Irish obviously) Have let the bondholders and the banks suffer their fate.
Nobody who is being bailed out by the taxpayer was lending money out of charity or desire to serve the nation, they did it for profit- they gambled, its what they do. If we had respected the capitalist system these people were supposed to be playing in and let them go down i don't see why future Bank or bondholder lenders would have any qualms, they had no reason until we did it to believe they had a right to be saved from the system they set up, Its supposed to have winners and losers their was more security for them to be had from knowing the risks were real, now its anyone's game in the future, the brightest and best wont frive because we guarantee to gut ourselves to save the losers.
I say let the Bondholders and bad Banks burn, the remainder will respect us for playing their game by the rules that everyone thought were in place.

If sinnfein are the only main party who will tell them to play the game they started i am seriously considering voting for them. FG are useless in oposition why trust them in govt.
 


dresden8

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Our funds would run out in mid-2011. Are you sure the bondholders would have gotten over their little hissy fit by then? If not, you better tell us how you´re going to cut 20 bn out of the budget.
Yet again you are wrong. Only our advance borrowing would run out mid-2011.

The NPRF could be used beyond that and was the ace in the hole as regards the EU attempts to force us into a corner. Our monetarist negotiators decided to protect monetarist policies and force the nation into that very same corner, surprisingly enough.

Weren't you leaving earlier by the way?
 

IfOnly

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My economic recovery/stimulus package:

Cut public sector wages by 30%, cut public sector workforce by 20,000, use savings to create REAL revenue paying jobs in the PRIVATE sector. Growing the private sector at the direct expense of the public sector will bring money INTO the country not recirculate borrowed money paying an excessive public sector. Its the harsh painful truth that will lead to a direct recovery. Ask INTEL/Schering Plough/GSK would they like 2Bn in tax cuts to create more jobs in this country... answer would be YES... give us the money and we'll give you jobs... WAKE the ************************ UP....
 

Walter Sobchak

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It is eminently possible that the lives of a huge proportion of our population will not be worth living anyway as a result of the almost unimaginable burden now being imposed on us by our ‘friends’ in the EU. Furthermore, it is dawning on many people that, in what is a holding operation for the EU’s banking system, the terms and the numbers simply do not add up. A failure of the numbers to add up is of minimal concern to our EU ‘friends’, as the intention is clearly to ring-fence any resulting pain so that only the mere Irish suffer.
Shurely shome mistake


 

dent

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First step if we reject this will be to eliminate the 20bn deficit on Dec 7th. If you´re not on for that, forget it.
Thanks to your traitorous masters, we might as well go for it in one fell swoop now. It's not as if we have a chance of creating jobs anyway. Thanks big fella....
 

Padraigin

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The bailout we have received is not even remotely comparable to the reparations imposed on Germany after WW1.

Wrong, This toxic debt being imposed on Ireland is exactly like what was done to Germany after WWII.

First the debt was imposed.

Then foreign interests took away all the wealth of the country and wrecked its economy, so that it became impossible to make the debt payments without reducing the country to abject poverty.

This will be you in a few years if you let this deal happen.
 

onlyasking

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Wrong, This toxic debt being imposed on Ireland is exactly like what was done to Germany after WWII.

First the debt was imposed.

Then foreign interests took away all the wealth of the country and wrecked its economy, so that it became impossible to make the debt payments without reducing the country to abject poverty.

This will be you in a few years if you let this deal happen.
Fair point. Factoring in the size of our burden and the small number of people bearing it, I'd say it could be argued that we are indeed facing some of the same risks.
 

A view from England

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yellowfish

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A much more realistic proposition.
BBC - Stephanomics: The European rescue plan that dare not speak its name
Everyone would be better off. I accept that the Eurofacist dream of a EUSSR would be over but it is doomed to failure anyway. Better this way than for the smaller states to unduly suffer.

Just to be clear in my view. Being against bondholders and banks being rescued from the natural selection of capitalism does not mean i am anti EU or Euro. It may need revision given our new found knowledge and experience but that is how systems should evolve.
It seems to me that the anti European view is hijacking the anti intervention against the Banks and bondholders one. Yes the EU is wrong about this one, But the fact is this country got itself into this mess and needs to look to itself when dishing the blame.
 

LongShanks

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Get a grip on the hysteria ffs - we got a loan, we´ve been borrowing for decades, what´s new?
What's new is that we've lost our sovereignty. Under the watch of the soldiers of destiny.
 

onlyasking

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What's new is that we've lost our sovereignty. Under the watch of the soldiers of destiny.
The issue here is whether there is a viable alternative to be offered in the lead-up to the election.

Do we have to accept our subjugation at the feet of the ECB, or can we actually stand up for ourselves and tell them we’re going to walk away from an agreement signed up to by a failed former-leadership which had absolutely no meaningful mandate to act on our behalf.

There appears to be something of a growing groundswell of opinion at all levels which would support the serious consideration of our tearing up the document of surrender.

Is there a national political party willing to give voice to this view? I’d imagine there'd be a fair degree of traction to be found in such an approach.
 

Cato

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First step if we reject this will be to eliminate the 20bn deficit on Dec 7th. If you´re not on for that, forget it.
Now if only we had our own currency...
 

LongShanks

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The issue here is whether there is a viable alternative to be offered in the lead-up to the election.

Do we have to accept our subjugation at the feet of the ECB, or can we actually stand up for ourselves and tell them we’re going to walk away from an agreement signed up to by a failed former-leadership which had absolutely no meaningful mandate to act on our behalf.

There appears to be something of a growing groundswell of opinion at all levels which would support the serious consideration of our tearing up the document of surrender.

Is there a national political party willing to give voice to this view? I’d imagine there'd be a fair degree of traction to be found in such an approach.
There is an alternative, there always is. Whether any of our ruling elite will have the stomach for it is another question. We can and must resist this bailout of the banks. We've already seen the market reaction our bonds are still 9%. It won't stop with us either, already Portugal and Spain are being targetted. Nobody really knows what would happen if we defaulted but other bigger countries did and survived. This bailout will kill the country not rescue it.

The only political party I know of who shares our opinions are Sinn Fein. And I'm seriously considering giving them a number 1 or 2.
 

picador

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There is an alternative, there always is. Whether any of our ruling elite will have the stomach for it is another question. We can and must resist this bailout of the banks. We've already seen the market reaction our bonds are still 9%. It won't stop with us either, already Portugal and Spain are being targetted. Nobody really knows what would happen if we defaulted but other bigger countries did and survived. This bailout will kill the country not rescue it.

The only political party I know of who shares our opinions are Sinn Fein. And I'm seriously considering giving them a number 1 or 2.
Sure why not show how committed you are to saving the country by giving SF a 3 instead of a 2.
 

turdsl

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Get a grip on the hysteria ffs - we got a loan, we´ve been borrowing for decades, what´s new?

Are you not aware that Fianna Fail have disgraced the people who fought and died for our independence, What would they think that of a Fianna Fail government receiving 7 billion from the British, What is new is that the government with their low standards for the last 13 years are unable to pay back the loan, They had to invite in the IMF to write our budgets for years to come. Have you no shame, do you think that is an honourable way to hand over the country to Mr Kenny if he wins the next election, Deep in debt with foreign bosses. I am not in a state of hysteria, but I am as mad as hell that Fianna Fail could do this to our people. The names of Bertie, McCreevy, Harney,, Cowen,have brought us to ruination, as for the harm that Lenihan has done in the last two years if he was trying to destroy our economy he could not have done it better, People mocked Mr Kenny 2 months ago when he said it would take 10 years for him to get it back to normal. not much hope of that now. I can imagine the state of the Dept of Finance when the new government get full control of the accounts.
 

LongShanks

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Sure why not show how committed you are to saving the country by giving SF a 3 instead of a 2.
Maybe you didn't read my post? I said a 1 or a 2.

A 2 can be as good as a 1 if the person you voted 1 for gets elected.

Who are you voting for then?
 

onlyasking

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There is an alternative, there always is.
Yes, but there are many parties, groups and interests out there that'd bury the alternatives under warnings about how they are unthinkable.

Whether any of our ruling elite will have the stomach for it is another question.
They won't. We have to sweep their representatives aside at the next election if at all possible.

The only political party I know of who shares our opinions are Sinn Fein. And I'm seriously considering giving them a number 1 or 2.
They would appear to be the logical destination of such votes. The elites who got us into this mess appear to have a great fear of SF, a fear that is obscured by self-righteous hatred.
 

Cato

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