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Third level institutions: Hea report published today


Vega1447

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Oct 18, 2007
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What do you think yourself?
 

stakerwallace

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My reaction is to welcome the direction in which these changes are heading, i.e. some rationalisation, some bringing together of compatible departments and colleges and the possible end of duplication and unnecessary managerial layers which exist in many colleges because of their ''independence'' and autonomy.
 

darkknight

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It would be interesting to study the role of the HEA in facilitating the reckless proliferation of unsustainable 3rd level institutions in recent decades.

The number of universities in Ireland (7) is roughly on par, proportionate to population, with the the UK (115).

But the number of non-university institutes and colleges (32 in Ireland)) is wildly out of kilter (165 in UK).

The UK would need approximately 480 non-university institutes /colleges to match the Irish level!

In many cases, the population necessary to sustain a small local 3rd level institution simply didn't, and doesn't, exist.

But the bill for keeping these places in operation (including very large salaries for senior academics and administrators) is enormous.

It was always crazy and reckless, driven more by parish pump politics than by sound academic planning.

The proposed mergers make sense, but are still not sufficiently drastic, especially at a time when scarce financial resources are urgently needed elsewhere in our education system.
 

sauntersplash

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Feb 3, 2009
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3,466
It would be interesting to study the role of the HEA in facilitating the reckless proliferation of unsustainable 3rd level institutions in recent decades.

The number of universities in Ireland (7) is roughly on par, proportionate to population, with the the UK (115).

But the number of non-university institutes and colleges (32 in Ireland)) is wildly out of kilter (165 in UK).

The UK would need approximately 480 non-university institutes /colleges to match the Irish level!

In many cases, the population necessary to sustain a small local 3rd level institution simply didn't, and doesn't, exist.

But the bill for keeping these places in operation (including very large salaries for senior academics and administrators) is enormous.

It was always crazy and reckless, driven more by parish pump politics than by sound academic planning.

The proposed mergers make sense, but are still not sufficiently drastic, especially at a time when scarce financial resources are urgently needed elsewhere in our education system.
Absolutely.

A pet hate of mine is staff at institutes of technology, who engage in no research, supervise no research, publish no papers, attend no conferences, have no PhD, yet are paid as third level "lecturers". These institutes are largely staffed by glorified secondary school teachers collecting supersized paycheques for five hours teaching a week. It's a disgrace.
 

wombat

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Absolutely.

A pet hate of mine is staff at institutes of technology, who engage in no research, supervise no research, publish no papers, attend no conferences, have no PhD, yet are paid as third level "lecturers". These institutes are largely staffed by glorified secondary school teachers collecting supersized paycheques for five hours teaching a week. It's a disgrace.
I don't know why you had to insult secondary teachers. The RTCs when originally set up were intended to fill the technologist gap but local politicians encouraged by snobbish parents insisted that they become ITs so little Johnny could get a degree in basket weaving. They have degenerated into 5th rate universities rather than filling a real need by providing industry ready graduates.
 

realistic1

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I don't know why you had to insult secondary teachers. The RTCs when originally set up were intended to fill the technologist gap but local politicians encouraged by snobbish parents insisted that they become ITs so little Johnny could get a degree in basket weaving. They have degenerated into 5th rate universities rather than filling a real need by providing industry ready graduates.

So what will happen to 'little johnny' if these places are closed down?? Will the remaining institutes be able to increase their numbers?
 

Amnesiac

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So what will happen to 'little johnny' if these places are closed down?? Will the remaining institutes be able to increase their numbers?
Most likely, but he'll have to travel further away from his mammy to do it. I would be surprised if the government actually made any bold move in this area. A reduction is likely, but nothing close to what's necessary.
 

wombat

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So what will happen to 'little johnny' if these places are closed down?? Will the remaining institutes be able to increase their numbers?
He may have to study a subject which is taught at a higher level but which will be of real value when he qualifies. My reading is that they plan mergers rather than closures with colleges teaching different courses rather than duplication. It sounds like a good idea but as always, the difficulty will be in the implementation.
 

Brehon

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Reads like another HSE situation. pretend mergers, no real reform. Teacher training needs 2 schools only, non religious, attached to TCD or UCD and Cork University.
The amount of waste in regional IT's is astounding. Incompetent lecturers being paid huge money for nothing. Degrees not worth anything. Unless heads are banged together, this will be another fudge.
 

The Field Marshal

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Reads like another HSE situation. pretend mergers, no real reform. Teacher training needs 2 schools only, non religious, attached to TCD or UCD and Cork University.
The amount of waste in regional IT's is astounding. Incompetent lecturers being paid huge money for nothing. Degrees not worth anything. Unless heads are banged together, this will be another fudge.
Afraid I have to agree.

A spokesperson for the HEA was interviewed today on radio and I could barely stop myself from falling asleep.
Endless waffle of the "going forward" type variety.
 

Mercurial

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Jun 4, 2009
Messages
88,215
It would be interesting to study the role of the HEA in facilitating the reckless proliferation of unsustainable 3rd level institutions in recent decades.

The number of universities in Ireland (7) is roughly on par, proportionate to population, with the the UK (115).

But the number of non-university institutes and colleges (32 in Ireland)) is wildly out of kilter (165 in UK).

The UK would need approximately 480 non-university institutes /colleges to match the Irish level!

In many cases, the population necessary to sustain a small local 3rd level institution simply didn't, and doesn't, exist.

But the bill for keeping these places in operation (including very large salaries for senior academics and administrators) is enormous.

It was always crazy and reckless, driven more by parish pump politics than by sound academic planning.

The proposed mergers make sense, but are still not sufficiently drastic, especially at a time when scarce financial resources are urgently needed elsewhere in our education system.

Are those figures able to take into account the size of the institutions in question?

Institutions per capita could be a misleading figure otherwise, since somewhere like UCC (16,000 students) would count the same as somewhere like The University of Manchester (39,000 students), for example.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
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20
Griffith College is an example as to how the Private Sector is delivering at HETAC standards. I would love someone to compare the cost per student on Level6 to Level 8.
Griffith deliver these courses for 5,000 per student - what do they per head in the public sector? Anybody able to answer this - a question for the Dail?
 

stakerwallace

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Afraid I have to agree.

A spokesperson for the HEA was interviewed today on radio and I could barely stop myself from falling asleep.
Endless waffle of the "going forward" type variety.
This is a matter of the utmost important and if what you say is borne out, I have to wonder at earnestness of purpose behind these very necessary reforms. We have an oversupply of independent institutions with their own hierarchies, all largely funded by the public purse, and rationalisation is required.
 

an modh coinniolach

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Oct 28, 2010
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1,312
Absolutely.

A pet hate of mine is staff at institutes of technology, who engage in no research, supervise no research, publish no papers, attend no conferences, have no PhD, yet are paid as third level "lecturers". These institutes are largely staffed by glorified secondary school teachers collecting supersized paycheques for five hours teaching a week. It's a disgrace.
I think the figures given on Drivetime last night were 25-30% of (presumably teaching) staff in the Institute of Technology sector were Ph.D. holders while around 75% of university (again presumably teaching) staff were. I'd have thought that, if a course is worth a degree, a Ph.D. ought to be the minimum requirement for lecturing on that course.

As a matter of reciprocation, can a Ph.D. holders without a H.Dip teach in secondary schools?
 

mackthenack

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Mar 5, 2009
Messages
50
Absolutely.

A pet hate of mine is staff at institutes of technology, who engage in no research, supervise no research, publish no papers, attend no conferences, have no PhD, yet are paid as third level "lecturers". These institutes are largely staffed by glorified secondary school teachers collecting supersized paycheques for five hours teaching a week. It's a disgrace.
Teaching hours for Assistant Lecturer are 20 per week average

Teaching hours for Lecturer are 18 per week average

Working week also includes additional such as admin and supervision

All ALs are now hired with PhDs complete or advanced state of completion

IOT lecturers publish extensively and or participate in national projects
 

Amnesiac

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Oct 27, 2011
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1,035
Teaching hours for Assistant Lecturer are 20 per week average

Teaching hours for Lecturer are 18 per week average

Working week also includes additional such as admin and supervision

All ALs are now hired with PhDs complete or advanced state of completion

IOT lecturers publish extensively and or participate in national projects
Not a criticism or anything, but I would refrain from using the word "supervision" in the context of IT students. It might feed into the secondary school argument.
 
Last edited:

skiii

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Nov 27, 2010
Messages
3,912
Teaching hours for Assistant Lecturer are 20 per week average

Teaching hours for Lecturer are 18 per week average

Working week also includes additional such as admin and supervision

All ALs are now hired with PhDs complete or advanced state of completion

IOT lecturers publish extensively and or participate in national projects
Yes, but will Enda Kenny end GMIT Castlebar's pay parity with Harvard? Will he phuck.
 
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