• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

This day in Irish History 13 December 1862 - The Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg


Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
This day is a famous and tragic day in the history of Ireland and the Irish in America

- 150 years ago today

Irishmen fought Irishmen in the bloody battle for Fredericksburg

The Irish Brigade went into battle at Fredericksburg with only one of their famed green banners. The others, torn from battle, had been sent back to New York, and they were awaiting new ones. It was unthinkable for the men of the Irish Brigade to go into battle without green, so they wore sprigs of boxwood in their caps. After Chaplain Ouellet had blessed each man in the 69th, Colonel Robert Nugent , commander of the 69th, placed a sprig of boxwood in the Chaplain’s hat, and told his men, to their intense amusement, “I’ll make an Irishman out of the Father this day!”.

Going into the battle the Irish Brigade mustered approximately 1700 men. After the slaughter 263 were still fit for duty. The video is correct that many of the Georgians confronting the Irish Brigade were Irish immigrants, a fact that increases the tragedy of the day.

The Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg | The American Catholic

See the video clip from the film Gods and Generals

The conduct of the Union Generals was like a precursor of WWI!
 

Telemachus

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
6,565
Website
en.wikipedia.org
I wonder did Spielberg in his Oscar nominated movie 'Lincoln' mention the fact that basically half starved asylum seekers from the old world were being used as cannon fodder by the yankees. They would have had more dignity starving to death in their hovels back on the old sod.
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
Quick question....Are you the user formerly known as Catalpa....and if so why the name change ?
No I was never Catalpa

I was never on this Site before

- & I was never in the IRA :cool:

- er wait a minute....

I'll call my Solicitor...:oops:
 

Thady Quill

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
413
The role of the Irish in 19th America was described as being to
"Fight your wars, build your railways, kill your Indians"

Sorry, do not have a link.
 
Last edited:

patwmcgee

Active member
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Messages
212
Twitter
patwmcgee
The Irish contributed generously to the 600K+ dead suffered by the North and South in the Civil War. Along with the Irish brigades documented here is the less well known story of the Scots-Irish in the war. They fought in disproportionate numbers on both sides. Many Scots-Irish in Appalachian counties, which were generally poor with few or no slaves, refused to support the Confederacy even after Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Georgia and Alabama, where they lived, seceded. The result was that for years after the war these Appalachian areas were subect to violent feuds between neighboring families.
 

Portadown madman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
1,515
The Irish contributed generously to the 600K+ dead suffered by the North and South in the Civil War. Along with the Irish brigades documented here is the less well known story of the Scots-Irish in the war. They fought in disproportionate numbers on both sides. Many Scots-Irish in Appalachian counties, which were generally poor with few or no slaves, refused to support the Confederacy even after Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Georgia and Alabama, where they lived, seceded. The result was that for years after the war these Appalachian areas were subect to violent feuds between neighboring families.
The Hatfield & McCoy feud.
 

parentheses

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,802
The Irish contributed generously to the 600K+ dead suffered by the North and South in the Civil War. Along with the Irish brigades documented here is the less well known story of the Scots-Irish in the war. They fought in disproportionate numbers on both sides. Many Scots-Irish in Appalachian counties, which were generally poor with few or no slaves, refused to support the Confederacy even after Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Georgia and Alabama, where they lived, seceded. The result was that for years after the war these Appalachian areas were subect to violent feuds between neighboring families.
The Scots Irish would have been the backbone of the southern army. As you say they were mostly poor people who did not have many slaves, in most cases they had none at all. The seccessionist south of America was a corrupt oligarchy really. The plantation owners were mostly descended from English aristocrats. And that part of America remained the most pro-British area of America. During the civil war the British had good relations with the secessionist south of America
 

Portadown madman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
1,515
The Scots Irish would have been the backbone of the southern army. As you say they were mostly poor people who did not have many slaves, in most cases they had none at all. The seccessionist south of America was a corrupt oligarchy really. The plantation owners were mostly descended from English aristocrats. And that part of America remained the most pro-British area of America. During the civil war the British had good relations with the secessionist south of America
Agree with much of that. The British had good relations with the Southern states during the Civil war. The main reason for this was down to cotton imports from the south . When the Northern states blockaded southern ports, this almost caused the British to enter the war . That's what I've read .
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,475
I wonder did Spielberg in his Oscar nominated movie 'Lincoln' mention the fact that basically half starved asylum seekers from the old world were being used as cannon fodder by the yankees. They would have had more dignity starving to death in their hovels back on the old sod.
This is one of the "Lost Cause" myths. For example, Irish immigrants were under-represented in the Union Army, and many Irish (like TF Meagher) took the opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty to the Union.

Despite the Draft, the Union Army was mainly a Volunteer army right to the end of the war. Some 70 to 80% of the 3-year Volunteers signed on again in 1864.
 
Last edited:

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
31,940
Agree with much of that. The British had good relations with the Southern states during the Civil war. The main reason for this was down to cotton imports from the south . When the Northern states blockaded southern ports, this almost caused the British to enter the war . That's what I've read .
Not correct as the anti slavery movement in the U.K was far stronger than the cotton lobby. Even the unemployed cotton workers favoured the anti slavery cause over their own interests. Once the South looked unlikely to achieve a stalemate, any hope of British recognition vanished.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,475
Agree with much of that. The British had good relations with the Southern states during the Civil war. The main reason for this was down to cotton imports from the south . When the Northern states blockaded southern ports, this almost caused the British to enter the war . That's what I've read .
In Britain, mainly the aristocracy supported the South. The working classes were generally opposed to slavery and supported the North, led by people like John Bright and John Stuart Mill. Despite job losses in Lancashire cotton mills, there was not the outbreak of discontent the Confederacy hoped for.

New supplies of cotton were found in Egypt and India. King Cotton turned out to be a busted flush.

Though some members of the British cabinet (including Gladstone) favoured recognition of the Confederacy, other figures opposed it. The French were willing to "mediate" (i.e. intervene) if they got British agreement, but they never did.

The attitude of the British middle class and working class, willing to accept some economic dislocation for a greater good, is said to have converted Gladstone to extension of the electoral franchise.

Some of the major issues between the US and Britain were blockade running with supplies of ammunition and the fitting out of Confederate commerce-raiders in British ports. The court cases over the depredations of commerce raiders like the C.S. Alabama prolonged the dispute for a few years.
 

Portadown madman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
1,515
I wonder did Spielberg in his Oscar nominated movie 'Lincoln' mention the fact that basically half starved asylum seekers from the old world were being used as cannon fodder by the yankees. They would have had more dignity starving to death in their hovels back on the old sod.
half of the union army was made up of Immigrants, cannon fodder is a bit strong.

Melting Pot Soldiers: The Union's Ethnic Regiments North's Civil War: Amazon.co.uk: William Burton: Books

1,000,000 45.4 Native-born white Americans.
516,000 23.4 Germans; about 216,000 were born in Germany.
210,000 9.5 African American. Half were freedmen who lived in the North, and half were ex-slaves from the South. They served under white officers in more than 160 "colored" regiments and in Federal regiments organized as the United States Colored Troops
200,000 9.1 Irish.
90,000 4.1 Dutch.
50,000 2.3 Canadian.
50,000 2.3 Born in England.
40,000 1.8 French or French Canadian. About half were born in the United States of America, the other half in Quebec.
20,000 0.9 Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, and Danish).
7,000 Italian
7,000 Jewish
6,000 Mexican
5,000 Polish
4,000 Native Americans
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
Agree with much of that. The British had good relations with the Southern states during the Civil war. The main reason for this was down to cotton imports from the south . When the Northern states blockaded southern ports, this almost caused the British to enter the war . That's what I've read .
Well that is what the South hoped for

- but the British People would not have it

- and their politicians knew that
 

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
6,073
Twitter
No
Is it really Irish history though? The "Irish Brigade" was so named to drag in the amadan recruits who had nothing better to do.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,475
Is it really Irish history though? The "Irish Brigade" was so named to drag in the amadan recruits who had nothing better to do.
The men who formed the Brigade, like TF Meagher, were the acknowledged leaders of the Irish-American community.

Fort Sumter caused an explosive wave of patriotism to sweep the North - comparable to Pearl Harbour or 9/11. Meagher and others (who pre-1861 were sympathetic to the South) took the lead in forming regiments that joined the Northern forces en masse.

And their patriotism was generally rewarded. After 1864, the Irish were generally more accepted in American Society because the veteran's association (the Grand Army of the Republic) contained many Irish , too, and was electorally very influential. From 1868 to 1900, every elected President (with the exception of Democrat Grover Cleveland) was a (Union) Civil War veteran, though many Irish returned to their pre-war Democrat allegiance.

Look at it this way - in 1860, a group of (white! (edit)) men marching down a New York street behind a green flag would have caused a riot. By 1864, they were being cheered.

150,000 men of the Union Army (and possibly 60,000 men of the Confederate Army) were born in Ireland. About 20% died in a war where disease and poor medical treatment probably doubled the number of casualties. In my view, that is Irish history, and (IMHO also) there should be a memorial to the Irish Civil War dead either in Ireland, or in the United States, sponsored by the Irish Government.
 
Last edited:
Top