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This day in Irish History 40 years ago - 7 April 1973 The death of Archbishop Charles John McQuaid

Kilbarry

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Anyone could become a megalomaniac if they are treated as a god and allowed rule over a whole nation without a mandate.
They are also known as dictators.
Evil prevails while good people stand by and do nothing.
John Cooney became Religious Affairs correspondent for the Irish Independent in 2004. Five years earlier he had published allegations that Archbishop McQuaid had been a paedophile - allegations that were rejected by every Irish historian and almost every Irish journalist including those who disliked the Archbishop. I recall one reviewer who REGRETTED that Cooney's claims were so baseless that they might create sympathy for John Charles. So what was the reaction when Cooney became Religious Affairs correspondent? Why complete and utter silence. Our courageous investigative journalists did not attempt to JUSTIFY the appointment; they said nothing at all. Indeed "Evil prevails while good people stand by and do nothing" (although we might perhaps omit the word "good" in this case).
 


Shpake

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Well let me play devil's advocate.
From the files of the Dublin archdioscese there was one unnamed cleric who was noted down as being of a flamboyant nature. This appears to be code for being gay, bohemian, indulging in practices that weren't approved. somehow the file of this cleric did not come before the scrutiny of the murphy commission due to clerical error of some sort. Later it transpired that it was none other than john Charles.
Well it's not against the law to be gay in this day and age.
But the main thing against him is that he presided over culture of secrecy and cover-up which facilitated the child-buggery to continue.
Other than that... we have very little to go on.
I recall reading that chapter of Cooney's book about the child abuse allegation. I thought to myself that even if an allegation was made against the archbishop at the time, he was practically unassailable in the courts. It would have been the word of the archbishop against the word of a a 12 year old child.
 

LamportsEdge

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We need to start looking at the cherleading so many of the 'powers that be' outside the church did of the church's actions... as well as rightly condeming those that bullied the people they were supposed to be protecting...
I think it would be right to deal with the nest first and then deal with the scattered outliers.
 

pippakin

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If it can be proven that McQuaid was a paedophile then it should be shown to everyone. The RCC had no right to withhold files from the state. The McQuaid file if that's what it was was not the last file to 'disappear'.
 

Andrew49

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McQuaid getting his ring kissed by President De Valera


De Valera making sure no dirt attaches itself to McQuaid.


[video=youtube;Fid-pdMm17E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fid-pdMm17E[/video]
 

Andrew49

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John Cooney became Religious Affairs correspondent for the Irish Independent in 2004. Five years earlier he had published allegations that Archbishop McQuaid had been a paedophile - allegations that were rejected by every Irish historian and almost every Irish journalist including those who disliked the Archbishop. I recall one reviewer who REGRETTED that Cooney's claims were so baseless that they might create sympathy for John Charles. So what was the reaction when Cooney became Religious Affairs correspondent? Why complete and utter silence. Our courageous investigative journalists did not attempt to JUSTIFY the appointment; they said nothing at all. Indeed "Evil prevails while good people stand by and do nothing" (although we might perhaps omit the word "good" in this case).
Good morning Br. Kilbarry - how's the electricity business these days? I'm surprised you're here as I would have bet good money that you were away on some ... ahem ... pastoral work - visiting Brother Corneluis - making sure he had heat & lighting and other electrical needs!
 

LamportsEdge

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Gone to the Great Sauna in the Sky:)
 

LamportsEdge

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No Dorothy slippers for McQuaid. Back to historical Kansas where history will record him as a man who liked to examine women's magazines with a magnifying glass looking for stray pubes in swimwear editions.

Another in a long line of psychosexual cripples from the seminary production line of the time.
 

Shpake

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Well let me play devil's advocate.
From the files of the Dublin archdioscese there was one unnamed cleric who was noted down as being of a flamboyant nature. This appears to be code for being gay, bohemian, indulging in practices that weren't approved. somehow the file of this cleric did not come before the scrutiny of the murphy commission due to clerical error of some sort. Later it transpired that it was none other than john Charles.
Well it's not against the law to be gay in this day and age.
But the main thing against him is that he presided over culture of secrecy and cover-up which facilitated the child-buggery to continue.
Other than that... we have very little to go on.
I recall reading that chapter of Cooney's book about the child abuse allegation. I thought to myself that even if an allegation was made against the archbishop at the time, he was practically unassailable in the courts. It would have been the word of the archbishop against the word of a a 12 year old child.
Regrets that I have set off a round of vitriol against someone who is not here to defend himself. Not entirely my fault. But the accusation that hits home is that he was the manager and safeguarder of the system that failed. The watchdog that refused to bark.
In 1,000 years time... in ten years time maybe historians will gape in amazement at the set-up of Catholic Ireland where a caste of old males, who were forbidden to indulge with women and in many cases were confined to an all male congregation were put in charge of young boys and given so much power over them. So much power that they were out of the scrutiny of the police and other institutions such as doctors and nurses. They could romp with impunity and release their pent up instincts.
Now the rumour filters out from the Church files that one senior cleric was flamboyant and it transpires it was non other than John Charles, the chief puppet master.
But we have no proof that he was paedophile. (But then they wouldn't say that, would they? Just that he was flamboyant). We know he presided over a massive and systematic cover-up, whether he participated himself is just one big plain mystery. He is dead forty years now. It brings echoes of the scene in Alice in wonderland where the face of the grinning Cheshire cat disappears slowly away from the wall. Just the grin remains. The one allegation... or is it two? should be made public, simply to throw some possible light on those times and the way people thought back then.
It raises questions about the application of the law. Where you have an autonomous or semi autonomous institution such as the banks or the church, or a government party, the subjects of investigation are much harder to scrutinize than joe public. Various motives can be fished up to explain away irresponsible behaviour. Recent examples in the child-buggery cases: "We didn't understand then, it was never even mentioned in Divinity school" or " The thinking of the the 1950's and 1960's was that such people were in need of treatment" (didn't apply to lay teacher offenders as the Murphy commission pointed out) and of course "The need to protect the good name of the Church was paramount" or " We were working under the dicates of Cannon Law".
Some might want the chapter to be closed and reach a measure of finality so that things can get back to normal. What's normal?
 

Andrew49

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.....

...


Recent examples in the child-buggery cases: "We didn't understand then, it was never even mentioned in Divinity school" or " The thinking of the the 1950's and 1960's was that such people were in need of treatment" (didn't apply to lay teacher offenders as the Murphy commission pointed out) and of course "The need to protect the good name of the Church was paramount" or " We were working under the dictates of Canon Law".
Some might want the chapter to be closed and reach a measure of finality so that things can get back to normal. What's normal?
One Irish Religious Order had two of its members hanged in North America in the early 1930s for the buggery and murder of two children in their care, so ignorance or lack of knowledge on the seriousness of child buggery doesn't stand up to scrutinity. They knew rape was a criminal offence then as it is now; bear in mind that they acted IMMEDIATELY when lay people were raping children - they called in the Gardai for those people but when occasions (such as sodalities) occurred that allowed children to reveal that clergy were abusing them, these sodalities were IMMEDIATELY shut down - the children were physically punished and those who were revealed as abusers were moved on to different settings where the abuse continued - only this time with different children.
 

Aindriu

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Give this one a boost for the day that's in it...
The evil barsteward needs digging up and hanging! He and DEVILera virtually condemned Ireland into being a 3rd worlkd country for decades.
 

The Field Marshal

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The evil barsteward needs digging up and hanging! He and DEVILera virtually condemned Ireland into being a 3rd worlkd country for decades.
After a war of independence , then disastrous war civil war, then economic war with Britain , Ireland progressed fast despite these gigantic challenges to its economy.

Then the second world war set not just Ireland but the whole world back.

It was not until the 1960,s that any real widespread form of prosperity came into the ROI.

Therefore you completely overestimate the importance of those people in terms of either a contribution or impediment to Irelands economic advance.
 

Catalpast

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Dr McQuaid lived a bit too long for his own reputation methinks

He was an anachronism by the 1960s when the Power of the Church started to visibly wane esp in his own Diocese

As for the abuse scandals we will never now how much he knew about them

- but there again we only hear about the cases where perpetrators continued their nefarious ways

- and not about the ones where their activities were snuffed out.

I know its hard for anyone under say 40 to understand but absolutely none of this was on the Public Radar back then

It was buried by perpetrators and victims alike

Most cases never got anywhere near McQuaid anyway

- I don't think he was an Evil man who meant harm to children

- and I don't think he realised that things had gone as far as they did

Obviously the vast majority of Priests did not abuse anyone BTW
 

Mick Mac

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The evil barsteward needs digging up and hanging! He and DEVILera virtually condemned Ireland into being a 3rd worlkd country for decades.
With the inherent white privilege we enjoyed. I doubt it.

But seriously I think you over egged the pudding
 


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