This Form is moribund... just like the Labour party



Congalltee

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Since 1932, when was Labour's most radical period lasting at least 3 years?
Joining a national coalition to get rid of FF in 1948?
The 70's will be socialist speech?
Tripling the national debt with Garrett?
Decriminalising homosexuality with FF, while creating a tiger economy by devaluing?
Abolishing 3rd level fees and allowing the people bring in divorce?
5 consecutive regressive budgets, homeless crisis and allowing the people bring in marriage equality?

There's some good stuff there and some really awful. But I wouldn't call it very radical.
 

neveragain

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"A political party who has forgotten where it came from and doesn't know where it is going should not be supported"

My father's resignation letter to the Labour party in 1973.
 

Congalltee

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"A political party who has forgotten where it came from and doesn't know where it is going should not be supported"

My father's resignation letter to the Labour party in 1973.
It did know where it was going: government, power, perks and pay.
 

SuirView

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It did know where it was going: government, power, perks and pay.
When is the right time to go into govt?
Poor SF won't go if they're not the leading party. If others took a similar view, they we would have no govt, unless one of them got an overall majority, which I don't see any time soon.
So a vote for poor SF is a wasted vote.
 

SuirView

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"A political party who has forgotten where it came from and doesn't know where it is going should not be supported"

My father's resignation letter to the Labour party in 1973.
When should "The Labour Party" gone into govt in the 26?
 

Congalltee

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When is the right time to go into govt?
Poor SF won't go if they're not the leading party. If others took a similar view, they we would have no govt, unless one of them got an overall majority, which I don't see any time soon.
.
No government is the not the end of the world. It's better than a government bringing in 5 regressive budgets, ruling through a cabinet sub-committee, paying bond holders, photo-ops at food banks, allowing tax breaks to vulture funds to become absentee landlords and evict thousands, nationalising private debt and dumping it on the next generation, and every broken promise hurts.
 

SPN

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So many issues and opportunities to champion - homelessness, housing, privatisation, health waiting lists, social welfare etc - but not a peep out of them.
The Unions are getting more pay rises.

That's all that matters.



The present homelessness, housing, privatisation, health waiting lists, social welfare etc problems were caused by the people who were in government, financial institutions etc having their arses licked by the Irish media during the pre 2009 period.

Those people bankrupted the country.

They caused the conditions which made it necessary to get a 85bn bailout by the EU and the IMF.
The figure was €67.5 Billion, of which €65 Billion went on funding Government overspending.

Originally the figure was to be €50 Billion for Government overspending and a €15 Billion contingency, but Labour decided we didn't need the contingency and blew the lot on more overspending.

If that €65 Billion had been spent on house building, additional staff for the health sector (instead of excessive pay for the insiders), and general infrastructure upgrades, we'd all be a lot better off today.





No government is the not the end of the world. It's better than a government bringing in 5 regressive budgets, ruling through a cabinet sub-committee, paying bond holders, photo-ops at food banks, allowing tax breaks to vulture funds to become absentee landlords and evict thousands, nationalising private debt and dumping it on the next generation, and every broken promise hurts.
The bond holders who were not wiped out (the majority had to take massive haircuts), were repaid by the banks, not by the Government. The banks repaid their maturing debt with money borrowed from the ECB, and paid off the ECB with money repaid to them by their customers.

Private debt was not nationalised. The State nationalised the banks by issuing new shares, thus wiping out whatever private interest there was in the banks up to the level of the hole in their respective balance sheets.

What has been dumped on the next generation is €120 Billion of debt taken on to maintain the excessive levels of expenditure (feather bedding) ramped up by the Government (with very little opposition from the opposition as it was happening) from 1997 onwards.

The FFailures bankrupted the Country, but the 2011 Government sold the family silver to keep the Unions and other vested interests in the style to which they had become accustomed.

That was a monumental mistake.
 

Blokesbloke

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I weep for Joan Burton and for Ireland.

You don't deserve her!

Thanks be to God there's still some sensible Irish folk left in the fine area of Dublin West!
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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The Unions are getting more pay rises.

That's all that matters.





The figure was €67.5 Billion, of which €65 Billion went on funding Government overspending.

Originally the figure was to be €50 Billion for Government overspending and a €15 Billion contingency, but Labour decided we didn't need the contingency and blew the lot on more overspending.

If that €65 Billion had been spent on house building, additional staff for the health sector (instead of excessive pay for the insiders), and general infrastructure upgrades, we'd all be a lot better off today.







The bond holders who were not wiped out (the majority had to take massive haircuts), were repaid by the banks, not by the Government. The banks repaid their maturing debt with money borrowed from the ECB, and paid off the ECB with money repaid to them by their customers.

Private debt was not nationalised. The State nationalised the banks by issuing new shares, thus wiping out whatever private interest there was in the banks up to the level of the hole in their respective balance sheets.

What has been dumped on the next generation is €120 Billion of debt taken on to maintain the excessive levels of expenditure (feather bedding) ramped up by the Government (with very little opposition from the opposition as it was happening) from 1997 onwards.

The FFailures bankrupted the Country, but the 2011 Government sold the family silver to keep the Unions and other vested interests in the style to which they had become accustomed.

That was a monumental mistake.

Private debt was not nationalised?

Go away. It just kills you that YOUR Green Party went in with Bertie and Co.

NAMA for a stag hunting ban.
 

shiel

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Feb 14, 2011
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The figure was €67.5 Billion, of which €65 Billion went on funding Government overspending.

Originally the figure was to be €50 Billion for Government overspending and a €15 Billion contingency, but Labour decided we didn't need the contingency and blew the lot on more overspending.

If that €65 Billion had been spent on house building, additional staff for the health sector (instead of excessive pay for the insiders), and general infrastructure upgrades, we'd all be a lot better off today.
The government announcement at the time said:

'Government statement
Announcement of joint EU-IMF Programme for Ireland
The Government today agreed in principle to the provision of €85 billion of financial support to Ireland by Member States of the European Union through the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF) and the European Financial Stability Mechanism; bilateral loans from the UK, Sweden and Denmark; and the International Monetary Fund's (IMF) Extended Fund Facility (EFF) on the basis of specified conditions.
The State's contribution to the €85 billion facility will be €17½ billion, which will come from the National Pension Reserve Fund (NPRF) and other domestic cash resources. This means that the extent of the external assistance will be reduced to €67½ billion.
The purpose of the external financial support is to return our economy to sustainable growth and to ensure that we have a properly functioning healthy banking system.'

Perhaps it could have been better managed but it could also have been worse. Look at Greece.

The point is that we should not have been bankrupted and left needing to be bailed out in the first place.

That was down to reckless decisions by a small number of powerful people in government, financial institutions etc who were unchallenged during the pre-2009 period.
 

SPN

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Private debt was not nationalised?
Correct.

The Banks were nationalised. More than €40 Billion of shareholder and bondholder assets were wiped out in the process.



Go away. It just kills you that YOUR Green Party went in with Bertie and Co.
The Green Party got a chance to learn how Government works from the inside, and were very successful in some areas, moderately successful in others, ranging to downright abysmal in others.

But considering the circumstances (one third of tax income disappeared just as they got into government), they made a very good fist of it.



NAMA for a stag hunting ban.
A heavily modified NAMA, with some of the more important modifications made by the Greens being reversed by the 2011 Government.

NAMA worked. It could have worked better.

But of the three alternatives on the table at the time, the version the Green Party supported was by far the best.



The government announcement at the time said:

'Government statement
Announcement of joint EU-IMF Programme for Ireland
The Government today agreed in principle to the provision of €85 billion of financial support to Ireland by Member States of the European Union through the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF) and the European Financial Stability Mechanism; bilateral loans from the UK, Sweden and Denmark; and the International Monetary Fund's (IMF) Extended Fund Facility (EFF) on the basis of specified conditions.
The State's contribution to the €85 billion facility will be €17½ billion, which will come from the National Pension Reserve Fund (NPRF) and other domestic cash resources. This means that the extent of the external assistance will be reduced to €67½ billion.
The purpose of the external financial support is to return our economy to sustainable growth and to ensure that we have a properly functioning healthy banking system.'
The €17.5 from the NPRF, plus €2.5 from the Troika, was to recapitalise the nationalised banks

€50 from the Troika was to fund Government overspending

€15 from the Troika was to be a contingency fund, on the basis that it is easier to borrow from someone (the markets) if you don't need to.



Perhaps it could have been better managed but it could also have been worse. Look at Greece.
Greece has a different problem, the problem Ireland is going to have when the current bubble bursts, in that it had been borrowing to spend for years. When it ran out of ability to borrow it could no longer continue to spend more than it could raise from taxes.

From 2008 the Irish Government was spending up to 150% of tax revenues. The average overspend for the 2011-2016 Government was 140%.

When the current bubble bursts the Government will have a massive legacy interest bill to pay before paying for the day-to-day running of the Country out of a much diminished tax income, and no ability to borrow to soften the blow.


The point is that we should not have been bankrupted and left needing to be bailed out in the first place.
Exactly.

We can't fix the past, but we should be making sure we don't repeat the mistakes of the past. That's why I continue to argue that we should be paying down debt as a priority. That gives us three benefits: 1) We get spending under control before the crisis hits; 2) We reduce the interest bill that will have to be paid; and 3) We create headroom for Government borrowing during the next crisis.



That was down to reckless decisions by a small number of powerful people in government, financial institutions etc who were unchallenged during the pre-2009 period.
The reckless decisions that killed us were the hollowing out of the tax base, the monumental increases in Government spending on recurring expenditures (PS pay in particular, which was increased by between 33% and 50%), and the decision to spend the windfall taxes on current expenditure instead of putting it into a rainy day fund.

And we have been repeating those reckless decisions, albeit in a slightly different form, since 2008, because we keep on spending more than we can afford.

We have been doubling down on stupidity.
 

Blokesbloke

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Jan 13, 2011
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22,871
Private debt was not nationalised?

Go away. It just kills you that YOUR Green Party went in with Bertie and Co.

NAMA for a stag hunting ban.
And I've not even heard a single "thank you" from the stag community.

Ungrateful bastards.
 


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