thousands of Irish Army "deserters " were court-martialed in 1945.

deiseguy

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So now you know what motivated all those that deserted to another army?

While Dev may have been useless in 1916, he still was brave enough to turn out that morning to take on the British in their own backyard, unlike many of his contempories.
Nah. There were plenty of reasons for joining. An old golfing buddy of my father left for Belfast the morning he got the letter confirming he had passed the civil service exam. He ended up a tail gunner in bomber command but reckoned it was preferable to the Irish civil service.
 


eoghanacht

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Incidentally, should De Valera have been court martialed in 1916 for failing to fire a single shot in the Easter Rising from his cosy garrison in Bolands Flour Mills.............and at a time when the real battle of the Rising was being fought at Mount Street Bridge when a handful of volunteers confronted the Sherwood Forresters as they arrived off the ferry to quell the Rebellion.

Am I right in thinking Bolands Mills were only about 100 yards or so from the Volunteers Mt Street Bridge mini garrrison.

Dev must have heard the shooting, the fight of the Rising, and yet he sat on his posterior throughout.

Why should I be surprised ?
Yep, i think i've suggested it on here before but he should be dug up and shot.

No one man has wrought as much damage on this country than him. From happily willingly for Irishmen to wade through the blood of other Irish men to founded that party of whores that is FF.
 

ocoonassa

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So now you know what motivated all those that deserted to another army?
It's just a wild guess, total stab in the dark, sure they could have been going to risk their lives and limbs for any number of reasons.

While Dev may have been useless in 1916, he still was brave enough to turn out that morning to take on the British in their own backyard, unlike many of his contempories.
He was useless before, during, and after 1916, iirc many of his contemporaries, the vast majority of the Volunteers, were off fighting to restore the freedom of small nations, so you could hardly expect them to show up. Many others at home thought it was long past time for armed insurrection and that Home Rule was well on its way.
 

Warren Poynt

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Was De Valera, the man who prompted many of these WW-2 court martials for soldiers who fought and died in the fight against Fascism, guilty of indolence and cowardice in the 1916 Rising when he sat on his hands in Bolands Mill while, in my view, the heroic battle of the Rising (apart from the GPO) was being fought on Mount Street Bridge.

These (the Mt Street Bridge mini garrison) were his colleagues-in-arms, yet he never lifted a finger to help them.

In my view, he (Dev) should have been court martialed for his refusal to come to their aid.

If he had been, it would probably have:

Stopped a civil war.

Not led to the disasterous split in Irish politics.

Prevented the assassination of Michael Collins.

Not led to the disgraceful message of sympathy for the death of ADOLF HITLER.

Prompted major Marshal Aid funds for this country post WW-2.

Not afflicted the curse of FF on the Irish body politic for 83 years.

His court martial for his non-part in 1916.............an opportunity lost ?
 

ne0ica

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I notice alot of the posters here seem to have a problem with a sovereign state court martialing deserters from its armed forces. The basis of the argument is that De Valera was in power. All governments and states prosecute deserters.
 

Conrad

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Devs ideal gaelic catholic protectionist Ireland had a hell of a lot more in common with the fascist side of WW2 than the allied side in fairness. Its not much of a mystery where his alliances really ran. If you were to go through his history of private armies and disregard for democracy he does tick a few of the boxes that constitute a fascist himself.
 

Odyessus

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The point is that there were two different reactions to oath breaking. One reaction for those who deserted but hung around, another for those who joined the fight against the Nazis.
But then, double standards were always commonplace in the "slightly constitutional party " !
The army makes a distinction between being absent without leave and desertion.

Presumably those who "hung around" were put into the former category.
 

ne0ica

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Devs ideal gaelic catholic protectionist Ireland had a hell of a lot more in common with the fascist side of WW2 than the allied side in fairness. Its not much of a mystery where his alliances really ran. If you were to go through his history of private armies and disregard for democracy he does tick a few of the boxes that constitute a fascist himself.
And Fine Gael led by Crosgrave or O'Duffy were hardly atheist liberals either. Crosgraves Ireland was more similar to Franco's Spain. At least FF tried to improve conditions with housing schemes.
 

Warren Poynt

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My point still remains:

Was Dev guilty of deserting the ideals of the 1916 Rising by failing to come to the aid of his colleagues when he knew they were in mortal peril in their unequal struggle to prevent British reinforcements arriving in Dublin to crush the Rising ???
 

Conrad

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And Fine Gael led by Crosgrave or O'Duffy were hardly atheist liberals either. Crosgraves Ireland was more similar to Franco's Spain. At least FF tried to improve conditions with housing schemes.
Story of Irish political history really. 2 sham parties, choose the one you hate least.
 

b.a. baracus

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Save me from the "fighting fascism" line. Pure revisionism. Neville Chamberlain didn't give a jot for the peoples of Europe when he declared "peace in our time". And this at a time when it was well known that horrendous oppression (full scale mass murder had not yet got underway) was being piled on Jews, Socialists and internal dissenters.

England was quite happy to ensure that their own ar$e was covered and sh*g the rest of them. When they had no choice but to get involved they did but it was not to directly oppose fascism for fascism's sake but in fear of what could and would come their way if they did not take a stand.

Was Dev's much maligned neutrality policy any different?

In saying that if deserters from the Irish Army were treated differently on the basis of where they deserted to then that is wrong but typical of Dev.
 

ne0ica

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My point still remains:

Was Dev guilty of deserting the ideals of the 1916 Rising by failing to come to the aid of his colleagues when he knew they were in mortal peril in their unequal struggle to prevent British reinforcements arriving in Dublin to crush the Rising ???
So if DeValera was a house burglar in the 20's you would have had a problem with house burglars in the 30's and 40's being tried by the courts. Its a silly argument.
 

ne0ica

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Story of Irish political history really. 2 sham parties, choose the one you hate least.
Conrad, I think like most Irish people today, you judge the past with modern spectacles. The political climate of those days were formed by the trauma of the war of independence and the civil war. Plus Catholism has maintained Irish people through centuries of occupation, poverty and humiliation. Ireland was not completely independent a small Urban population with a small industry. Large scale povery. All of which made for a more conseravtive population. Its a wonder the country didn't go down the road of Italy or Spain.
 

ocoonassa

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Plus Catholism has maintained Irish people through centuries of occupation, poverty and humiliation.
lol Giving the Crown of Ireland to a foreign king, sending in the Normans to impose feudalism, confirming the crown of Ireland as a foreign possession, funding King Billy and celebrating his victory, double crossing King Billy causing the imposition of the penal codes, opposing every rising that wasn't led by feudal bigots, stigmatising the Irish language as backwards, raping children and many many other splendid examples of maintaining the Irish people. Good job they didn't get into the schools to be teaching history or we might not even recognise half of those great favours
 

ne0ica

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lol Giving the Crown of Ireland to a foreign king, sending in the Normans to impose feudalism, confirming the crown of Ireland as a foreign possession, funding King Billy and celebrating his victory, double crossing King Billy causing the imposition of the penal codes, opposing every rising that wasn't led by feudal bigots, stigmatising the Irish language as backwards, raping children and many many other splendid examples of maintaining the Irish people. Good job they didn't get into the schools to be teaching history or we might not even recognise half of those great favours
Your so ignorant its unbelievable. I said Catholicism sustained Irish people during persecution. Its a religion that people have practiced in Ireland for 1,500 years. Whatever about hierarchy and the politics of the church, the Catholic faith itself helped to sustain people through these dark times. Silly boy. You should read more and educate yourself on Irish history a bit more.
 

ocoonassa

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I said Catholicism sustained Irish people during persecution.
On the contrary, having given the country away to foreign Kings, it taxed, abused and persecuted people.
 

A Time for Every Purpose

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lol Giving the Crown of Ireland to a foreign king, sending in the Normans to impose feudalism, confirming the crown of Ireland as a foreign possession, funding King Billy and celebrating his victory, double crossing King Billy causing the imposition of the penal codes, opposing every rising that wasn't led by feudal bigots, stigmatising the Irish language as backwards, raping children and many many other splendid examples of maintaining the Irish people. Good job they didn't get into the schools to be teaching history or we might not even recognise half of those great favours
Wow ,I think that you might be just a bit out of balance in your 'judgement'
and facts ! !
Billions of people have passed through the Catholic church,and if only one %
were bad ,that would make a lot of people.
A thousand years ago ,ideas about war ,and communications were a little bit different then today.
Better a too strict parent ,than a totally absent one,who lets you go to 'hell'.
Funny my extended family had a different experience, and so did millions of others.
 

ne0ica

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On the contrary, having given the country away to foreign Kings, it taxed, abused and persecuted people.
How is your literacy skills ocoonassa. There is another tread running about the poor literacy skills of the Irish adult population. Perhaps you need to look up on wiki the difference between a religous faith and a religous institution.
 

ne0ica

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Wow ,I think that you might be just a bit out of balance in your 'judgement'
and facts ! !
Billions of people have passed through the Catholic church,and if only one %
were bad ,that would make a lot of people.
A thousand years ago ,ideas about war ,and communications were a little bit different then today.
Better a too strict parent ,than a totally absent one,who lets you go to 'hell'.
Funny my extended family had a different experience, and so did millions of others.
I think its too diffucult of a concept for the poor man to understand.
 

ocoonassa

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Wow ,I think that you might be just a bit out of balance in your 'judgement'
and facts ! !
Look at the long list of 'cons' I wrote. That isn't even all of them by a long shot. Now you bring me a list of 'pros' of a similar magnitude, and I'll re-think what I'm thinking. Otherwise I can only think you might be just a bit out of balance in your 'judgement' and facts ! !
 


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