Three months to vacate

GDPR

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This thread is about the three months notice to leave ones rental accommodation. I am going to use three examples around this whole area from couples that I know quite well.

The first example are neighbours that moved out two weeks ago to a different area of town. We rented in the same house for a year before we moved literally across the road to our own house. Our neighbours were there about three years and we got to know them well over this period as did our kids and theirs. Both were going through college and in the last year or so finished their training and got jobs. The additional car was the most visible sign of their lives improving and we were happy for our neighbours as we knew they had a tough time the previous two years. They told us at our sons birthday party during the summer that they were told that they had to move out inside 3 months and that the landlord would be moving in. While sad to see them go, we knew they would be ok given that they were both working and moved two weeks ago to a house a few minutes drive away. The landlord, I assume, has moved in the last few days.

The second example is from a work colleague who describes themselves as accidental landlords. She says says that the amount they owe to the bank has dropped very little in the last 8 years or so on the house they have rented out. They will be looking to sell next summer with house prices rising and end their headache of being accidental landlords.

The third example is from close friends of ours. They struggle to get by, money is tight. Our friend, let's call her Mary, is due their third child in little over a month. She is Polish, a full time mum who supplements their income with some hours with Polish school. Dad works full time. Last Saturday they got the three months notice to get out and they're in quiet a panic over it. The dad is enquiring about getting a job in Poland.

Now the thread is not intended to be about the three real life examples I've briefly illustrated, but to stimulate a debate around this issue of rental uncertainty. I would invite you to outline your own experiences in this area or of people you know. And finally I would invite you discuss the policies in this area around rental uncertainty, whether they should change and how such changes can and should occur. The policy backdrop to this can focus on 'Rebuilding Ireland' and where this might go. I have placed this thread in this forum to illustrate how policies actually impact upon people. Thoughts?
 
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Now the thread is not intended to be about the three real life examples I've briefly illustrated, but to stimulate a debate around this issue of rental uncertainty. I would invite you to outline your own experiences in this area or of people you know. And finally I would invite you discuss the policies in this area around rental uncertainty, whether they should change and how such changes can and should occur. The policy backdrop to this can focus on 'Rebuilding Ireland' and where this might go. I have placed this thread in this forum to illustrate how policies actually impact upon people. Thoughts?
Have rented years ago however responding on this as a Landlord, had little in Ireland and disposed of that but only stuff I have is in UK.

UK law different in that just need to give Tenants 2 months notice, Assured Shorthold Tenancy (6 months) when first go in, that can be redone, in practice never do it as agents charge tenants to redo it. It just becomes a periodic tenancy with given 2 months notice at any time, they need to give me one.

Have evicted prob 4-5 people, 2 myself rather than agent, 1 never paid (deserved to go), second tenant needed a bungalow because of back injury and bigger family, forced eviction but in reality it wwasn't, got her a bungalow and I picked up court costs on proviso she cleaned the property (she did), tenant for 5 1/5 years and was longest every lived in 1 place.
Agents have done a couple, non payment of rent but on one occasion because tenant continually abusive to agents staff.

Now do put up rent if area has rising rents, lost out once as tenant left and prob lost 6 months rent in reletting and lick of paint.

Tenants wanting long term get it and long as they look after property and pay rent they stay as long as they want.

Longest tenant owes me 3 months rent approx, has been that way for last 3 years and she bringing it down but will prob never pay off but she been a tenant for 7 years.

Some rents need to rise but my return is ok, ave rent is between £4-500 per month........ so not London based. Rent rises in single % and really have only 1 property that is sitting at 70% to market rent, see it being at market in 5 years unless tenant leaves.

In short and same with most landlords in UK I know, we like long term tenants who pay, deposit is legally protected, law allows to evict with no reason, in practice few do.

Irish law requires a contrived reason which doesn't help.

If in Ireland and had property I doubt would do things differently.
 

Florence

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My parents are accidental landlords. Two of my siblings lived in 2 apartments they owned; they had to leave the country when they had no work. So my parents let the apartments. They gave any tenants one year leases and explained that these might not be renewed at the end of the year because the apartment might be needed when my siblings returned which would be when the economy picked up.

Any legislative changes about length of notice/security of tenants will have to take into account the difference between the many accidental landlords like my parents who need their property back and the career landlords who do not need property for family members.
 

GDPR

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Have rented years ago however responding on this as a Landlord, had little in Ireland and disposed of that but only stuff I have is in UK.

UK law different in that just need to give Tenants 2 months notice, Assured Shorthold Tenancy (6 months) when first go in, that can be redone, in practice never do it as agents charge tenants to redo it. It just becomes a periodic tenancy with given 2 months notice at any time, they need to give me one.

Have evicted prob 4-5 people, 2 myself rather than agent, 1 never paid (deserved to go), second tenant needed a bungalow because of back injury and bigger family, forced eviction but in reality it wwasn't, got her a bungalow and I picked up court costs on proviso she cleaned the property (she did), tenant for 5 1/5 years and was longest every lived in 1 place.
Agents have done a couple, non payment of rent but on one occasion because tenant continually abusive to agents staff.

Now do put up rent if area has rising rents, lost out once as tenant left and prob lost 6 months rent in reletting and lick of paint.

Tenants wanting long term get it and long as they look after property and pay rent they stay as long as they want.

Longest tenant owes me 3 months rent approx, has been that way for last 3 years and she bringing it down but will prob never pay off but she been a tenant for 7 years.

Some rents need to rise but my return is ok, ave rent is between £4-500 per month........ so not London based. Rent rises in single % and really have only 1 property that is sitting at 70% to market rent, see it being at market in 5 years unless tenant leaves.

In short and same with most landlords in UK I know, we like long term tenants who pay, deposit is legally protected, law allows to evict with no reason, in practice few do.

Irish law requires a contrived reason which doesn't help.

If in Ireland and had property I doubt would do things differently.
Thanks for that. I don't particularly want this to turn into a bash the landlord thread, which is may well do. Another work colleague, has sworn he will never rent again because as I gather it, he got burnt badly in the 90's in England. He has rented the same house for the past 16 years, and I would say would be quite happy to rent the next 16, someone any landlord would want, pays on time, keeps the place well. You've touched on some policy differences between here and UK, so from your personal perspective, what would you like to see or what should be changed re the rental market here, whether policy, taxation or whatever that may be?
 

GDPR

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My parents are accidental landlords. Two of my siblings lived in 2 apartments they owned; they had to leave the country when they had no work. So my parents let the apartments. They gave any tenants one year leases and explained that these might not be renewed at the end of the year because the apartment might be needed when my siblings returned which would be when the economy picked up.

Any legislative changes about length of notice/security of tenants will have to take into account the difference between the many accidental landlords like my parents who need their property back and the career landlords who do not need property for family members.
There is a market I believe for both short term and longer terms rentals. I would guess that your parents are not interested in families but younger, perhaps single tenants and that's fine. I think that issues re notice/security in such examples can be developed further to the satisfaction of both parties.
 

Florence

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There is a market I believe for both short term and longer terms rentals. I would guess that your parents are not interested in families but younger, perhaps single tenants and that's fine. I think that issues re notice/security in such examples can be developed further to the satisfaction of both parties.
the apartments are one bedroom and there is no outside space so quite unsuitable for families. They let to couples working in the area who want to buy their own place when they can. So far very good tenants and parents/tenants happy.
 

GDPR

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the apartments are one bedroom and there is no outside space so quite unsuitable for families. They let to couples working in the area who want to buy their own place when they can. So far very good tenants and parents/tenants happy.
My rental experience was always short term, longest being just shy of two years, mostly renting a room in house of whatever size. I only rented a house once, and that was for a year before I bought across the road. However, longer term rental options are being sought and are needed, even 1 bed apartments.
 

gerhard dengler

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Our area is pretty much settled at this stage. But a couple of houses close to us were purchased by one builder. He rented out both houses.

We know the tenants in both houses. The tenants in one of the houses are a young family. They have zero chance of being able to afford to buy. They've been renting that rental property since 2007.

The other house held various tenants. The last tenants called in to me and asked me if I had any contact details for their landlord! (they had called in to me at variance times, to borrow spanners etc for domestic repairs) I asked them why did they need this information because surely they're in contact with the landlord. They explained that the roof in their house had been leaking and when the contacted the landlord to get the roof repaired, his wife told them that her husband (their landlord) no longer lived in the marital home. Being a long time resident they thought that perhaps I might have some other contact details for their landlord (I don't).

A week later their landlord arrived at the property and gave them notice to vacate the property. He told them that he was selling the house. They couldn't get their deposit back from him. That property has been up for sale. The selling price is the same price he paid for it at 2006 - and it has been for sale since June 2016.
(the same former tenants have stayed in touch with me because they'd love to buy, if the price gets decreased).

The same landlord told the tenants in the other rented house that their rent was being increased by €300.00 per month. The wife of the renting couple now has to work to earn money to pay the extra rent. Her 1 yr old had be enrolled in creche as a result, while her 7 yr old is at school.

I've heard separately that the landlord's building business is in trouble, and rumour has it that he may have bought both properties on an interest only deal and now that the interest only part of the mortgage term has expired, he needs to either off load the properties or part fund the repayments himself.

In the meantime the tenants are left to the fate of his fortunes.
 
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Thanks for that. I don't particularly want this to turn into a bash the landlord thread, which is may well do. Another work colleague, has sworn he will never rent again because as I gather it, he got burnt badly in the 90's in England. He has rented the same house for the past 16 years, and I would say would be quite happy to rent the next 16, someone any landlord would want, pays on time, keeps the place well. You've touched on some policy differences between here and UK, so from your personal perspective, what would you like to see or what should be changed re the rental market here, whether policy, taxation or whatever that may be?
Rental Deposit protection is a must, means tenant can't with hold last months rent and say take it out of deposit. Also their record should follow them. If i fail to protect a deposit in reasonable time then could get hit with 3 times that in court if tenant chases it as they entotled to paperwork or can check online.

3 months is probably adequate notice time, in reality in UK I give tenants 2 months, they ignore then I apply for posession order, if they contest for any reason goes before a judge and if he finds for me then gives then anything up to 6 weeks to give up posession, if they don't go back to court for bailiff eviction (see the channel 4 debt collector series) so it could take 6 months. As said most evictions are for a reason be it unpaid rent or damage. Make it easier to evict.

Fix rent increases where have evicted previous tenant, so if evict and they paying €1200 a month then rent cannot increase by more than 10% on property on tenancy in following 15 months. Cost of eviction plus refurb won't justify it.

Tax they changed in UK so 3% stamp duty not reclaimable on purchase (good idea), reducing Mortgage interest allowance which is bad idea

In Ireland would move all council housing to Housing Trusts, also incentivise people with 4 bed propertys to downsize.
 

GDPR

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Our area is pretty much settled at this stage. But a couple of houses close to us were purchased by one builder. He rented out both houses.

We know the tenants in both houses. The tenants in one of the houses are a young family. They have zero chance of being able to afford to buy. They've been renting that rental property since 2007.

The other house held various tenants. The last tenants called in to me and asked me if I had any contact details for their landlord! (they had called in to me at variance times, to borrow spanners etc for domestic repairs) I asked them why did they need this information because surely they're in contact with the landlord. They explained that the roof in their house had been leaking and when the contacted the landlord to get the roof repaired, his wife told them that her husband (their landlord) no longer lived in the marital home. Being a long time resident they thought that perhaps I might have some other contact details for their landlord (I don't).

A week later their landlord arrived at the property and gave them notice to vacate the property. He told them that he was selling the house. They couldn't get their deposit back from him. That property has been up for sale. The selling price is the same price he paid for it at 2006 - and it has been for sale since June 2016.
(the same former tenants have stayed in touch with me because they'd love to buy, if the price gets decreased).

The same landlord told the tenants in the other rented house that their rent was being increased by €300.00 per month. The wife of the renting couple now has to work to earn money to pay the extra rent. Her 1 yr old had be enrolled in creche as a result, while her 7 yr old is at school.

I've heard separately that the landlord's building business is in trouble, and rumour has it that he may have bought both properties on an interest only deal and now that the interest only part of the mortgage term has expired, he needs to either off load the properties or part fund the repayments himself.

In the meantime the tenants are left to the fate of his fortunes.
An all too familiar story unfortunately. What would be your suggestions in this area, or even the example you cite?
 

GDPR

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Rental Deposit protection is a must, means tenant can't with hold last months rent and say take it out of deposit. Also their record should follow them. If i fail to protect a deposit in reasonable time then could get hit with 3 times that in court if tenant chases it as they entotled to paperwork or can check online.

3 months is probably adequate notice time, in reality in UK I give tenants 2 months, they ignore then I apply for posession order, if they contest for any reason goes before a judge and if he finds for me then gives then anything up to 6 weeks to give up posession, if they don't go back to court for bailiff eviction (see the channel 4 debt collector series) so it could take 6 months. As said most evictions are for a reason be it unpaid rent or damage. Make it easier to evict.

Fix rent increases where have evicted previous tenant, so if evict and they paying €1200 a month then rent cannot increase by more than 10% on property on tenancy in following 15 months. Cost of eviction plus refurb won't justify it.

Tax they changed in UK so 3% stamp duty not reclaimable on purchase (good idea), reducing Mortgage interest allowance which is bad idea

In Ireland would move all council housing to Housing Trusts, also incentivise people with 4 bed propertys to downsize.
It has been suggested before, that an independent third party should hold the deposit, to protect both parties.
 

devoutcapitalist

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How many Celtic Tiger landlords are up to their necks in debt because they paid well over the odds for an investment property?

Saying that been a landlord in Ireland is not attractive considering how difficult It is to evict people for not paying their rent.
 

gerhard dengler

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An all too familiar story unfortunately. What would be your suggestions in this area, or even the example you cite?
The couple booted out the rented house are taking legal action to seek return of their deposit.

The other couple have to pony up an extra €300.00 after tax to pay the higher rent.

I suspect - and I repeat suspect - that what could be happening in these 2 cases is that the same landlord was not maintaining mortgage repayments. Because the people he evicted were literally model tenants. I know because I've been inside that rented property and it was kept immaculately when they were there.

It's a difficult one. Tenants need to be better protected. If the landlord's marriage is gone or if he's not maintaining his mortgage repayments (after receiving rent from his tenants), the tenants should not be made bear the price through eviction or being gouged with rent increases.

I'd like to see some protection for tenants based on the duration of their tenancy. If a tenant has rented for 10 years, notification to move on should be longer than one applied to someone who only rented for 5 years or 1 year.

I'd also like to see a process where landlords who's properties are mortgaged, provide proof that the mortgage is not arrears.
 
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It has been suggested before, that an independent third party should hold the deposit, to protect both parties.
Its the way it is in UK, it works, though must admit on the 1 property self manage I didn't take a deposit.

Tenant there 4 1/2 yrs, baby at 16 maybe a bit before, rented at 18, never hear from her. Her mum lives round corner. No other LL would rent to her as too young. Catholic Irish background and refused to take easy route when preg and her mum has always made clear daugher will look after house.
BGAs have Gas / Electric / Water issue contract and they managed to flood the house this week and blow electrics, will get cost of years comtract back as they really have screwed up and she is at her mums since Monday so told them they paying her compensation in time for Christmas. Only prop I have in the city but figure she will prob live there for least anopther 5-6 years or longer.

Everything said it was a risk, my gut told me she wasn't.

Wish had more tenants like her.
 
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The couple booted out the rented house are taking legal action to seek return of their deposit.

The other couple have to pony up an extra €300.00 after tax to pay the higher rent.

I suspect - and I repeat suspect - that what could be happening in these 2 cases is that the same landlord was not maintaining mortgage repayments. Because the people he evicted were literally model tenants. I know because I've been inside that rented property and it was kept immaculately when they were there.

It's a difficult one. Tenants need to be better protected. If the landlord's marriage is gone or if he's not maintaining his mortgage repayments (after receiving rent from his tenants), the tenants should not be made bear the price through eviction or being gouged with rent increases.

I'd like to see some protection for tenants based on the duration of their tenancy. If a tenant has rented for 10 years, notification to move on should be longer than one applied to someone who only rented for 5 years or 1 year.

I'd also like to see a process where landlords who's properties are mortgaged, provide proof that the mortgage is not arrears.
I would have stayed until court evicted me and held rent until leaving.
I cannot even enter one of my properties unless invited in or a gas leak is suspected, cops act on this.

In this case would contact Bank and told them issue, they may apply for receivership and you pay them until sold with LL no rights.
 

Kommunist

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I think landlordism is disgusting in general and speculating over peoples right to a shelter is too. Landlords in Ireland in tandem with agencies and TD's have shown little regard for people from all backgrounds and the state has also abandoned them.

The housing market at the moment is based on nothing but speculation. There is no increase in the purchasing power of people or their wealth to correlate into an increase in housing prices. In fact the cost of living has increased disproportionately to the average wage in the last 35 or so years, both here in Ireland and abroad.
 
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I think landlordism is disgusting in general and speculating over peoples right to a shelter is too. Landlords in Ireland in tandem with agencies and TD's have shown little regard for people from all backgrounds and the state has also abandoned them.

The housing market at the moment is based on nothing but speculation. There is no increase in the purchasing power of people or their wealth to correlate into an increase in housing prices. In fact the cost of living has increased disproportionately to the average wage in the last 35 or so years, both here in Ireland and abroad.
ok after parroting the rhetoric why not read the thread and answer the OP's questions with some answers that are applicable rather than lets just build and give everybody a house.

Park the politics at the door and answer the F******g questions raised.
 


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