‘To attract top talent, increase pay for high ranking public staff'

Socratus O' Pericles

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The Government has indicated that top-level specialist positions are the areas in greatest need of pay rises in the public service and that in the main, remuneration levels for State employees at other levels are very attractive.
In a confidential submission to the new Public Service Pay Commission – which is looking at remuneration for all 300,000 people on the State payroll including gardaí, teachers and civil servants – the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform said there was “no problem” in recruiting new entrants to the public service in general on existing terms.


http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/to-attract-top-talent-increase-pay-for-high-ranking-public-staff-1.2903162

So some specialist positions need higher pay to recruit desirable candidates. Otherwise no problem in recruiting staff. I suppose in nursing and medicine just not Irish ones.

So in the main no need for pay increases in ps?
 


Watcher2

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http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/to-attract-top-talent-increase-pay-for-high-ranking-public-staff-1.2903162

So some specialist positions need higher pay to recruit desirable candidates. Otherwise no problem in recruiting staff. I suppose in nursing and medicine just not Irish ones.

So in the main no need for pay increases in ps?
If top civil servants get a pay rise, politicians get a pay rise. Turkeys and Ch5ristmas and all that.
 

Sister Mercedes

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You can see what will happen. They'll use the difficulties in attracting top people in IT and finance to give pay rises to everyone at the top of the civil service.

An acquaintance returned to Ireland after many years working in finance in the UK at a senior level. He figured it would be a doddle to get a job here in the Central Bank and he didn't care too much about the money as he's fairly comfortable financially. But after he applied for a number of positions with them, he got one pfo after another. Now he's back in the UK and working there, but the Central Bank are claiming they need to raise salaries to attract senior staff. I don't believe them.

I've heard similar stories of nurses in the UK applying for jobs here and hearing nothing back from the HSE. These staff shortages seem to be manipulated to increase salaries.
 
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captain obvious

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http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/to-attract-top-talent-increase-pay-for-high-ranking-public-staff-1.2903162

So some specialist positions need higher pay to recruit desirable candidates. Otherwise no problem in recruiting staff. I suppose in nursing and medicine just not Irish ones.

So in the main no need for pay increases in ps?
I think they should start by making the whole thing transparent and then making that public in one place. I am not aware of anywhere where the average citizen, who is bankrolling this boondoggle, can make up their own mind. I would also like to see the cost/benefit analysis of scrapping the whole pay grade system and making it more competitive.

In general I have no problem in increasing pay to recruit more staff in some areas, but if that is a tide that lifts all boats on a certain pay-grade then it is not value for money.
 

The_SR

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Tough one for some. People want the PS to operate more like the private sector. To do this they need private sector experience at private sector prices
 
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PS get pay rises without productivity gains and jobs are protected.

Problem is if one person gets rewarded everybody else wants it without being required to put in same level of commitment.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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You can see what will happen. They'll use the difficulties in attracting top people in IT and finance to give pay rises to everyone at the top of the civil service.

An acquaintance returned to Ireland after many years working in finance in the UK at a senior level. He figured it would be a doddle to get a job here in the Central Bank and he didn't care too much about the money as he's fairly comfortable financially. But after he applied for a number of positions with them, he got one pfo after another. Now he's back in the UK and working there, but the Central Bank are claiming they need to raise salaries to attract senior staff. I don't believe them.

I've heard similar stories of nurses in the UK applying for jobs here and hearing nothing back from the HSE. These staff shortages seem to be manipulated to increase salaries.

You don't believe that an organisation which supervises financial services companies - many of which can pay top dollar, especially for those with regulatory experience -might need to raise salaries to attract staff?
 

hurling_lad

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http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/to-attract-top-talent-increase-pay-for-high-ranking-public-staff-1.2903162

So some specialist positions need higher pay to recruit desirable candidates. Otherwise no problem in recruiting staff. I suppose in nursing and medicine just not Irish ones.

So in the main no need for pay increases in ps?
I know from talking to several people involved in the area that one big reason that we have such poor senior management and financial control in the HSE (which is certainly the most complex organisation in the state) is because of the difficulty in attracting top external talent.

This was demonstrated most clearly when Dr. Tony O'Connell resigned last year as national director of acute hospitals saying in his resignation letter “I have found the much-reduced take-home salary in my current position, compared to other positions I have held in Australia, too much of a financial challenge.”.
Salary one reason HSE director quit to go back to Australia

I have also heard a former colleague who works in finance in the HSE say that he would often be the only professionally qualified accountant at meetings of senior people working in the finance function.

The salary levels on offer at the top levels in the HSE are currently only attractive to Health Board/HSE lifers: it goes without saying that this is a massive problem in attracting capable people into what are the most difficult jobs in the country. Even though many of these jobs are contract positions, they represent little risk for lifers who can return to their previous permanent posts no matter how many balls-ups they make.

It should also be noted that our high marginal tax rates do nothing to help the situation.
 

Sister Mercedes

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You don't believe that an organisation which supervises financial services companies - many of which can pay top dollar, especially for those with regulatory experience -might need to raise salaries to attract staff?
You could shut down the Irish Central Bank tomorrow and nobody would notice the slightest difference. It's just a pretense at regulation.

“When Joan Burton looks at me in my eye and says to me ‘obviously you’re a foreigner, you didn’t know that in Ireland there is no such thing as white collar crime. Had I known you at the time I would have told you to get another job.’ That is exactly what she said to me.”
“How many people in the regulator’s office have been held accountable for the absolute collapse of Irish banks? How many? None! This is fact.
Banking crisis whistleblower Jonathan Sugarman claims Irish financial situation has ’gotten much worse’ since collapse
 

The_SR

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im axeled

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it is a no win suitation, the whole sorry mess needs to be scrapped and reinvented, to do that without being hell to play is the problem, but then lpt and use were brought in
 

Trainwreck

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http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/to-attract-top-talent-increase-pay-for-high-ranking-public-staff-1.2903162

So some specialist positions need higher pay to recruit desirable candidates. Otherwise no problem in recruiting staff. I suppose in nursing and medicine just not Irish ones.

So in the main no need for pay increases in ps?


OK, first off, what would happen is that the numpty lifetime PS incumbents would simply get a big fat pay rise.

Secondly, what is the first thing that happens when you apply for a PS job? Yep, they ask you "what experience do you have working in the PS? None? Oh dear.". So this would just more cream for PS insiders.


This is what I propose. A maximum 10 year limit on anyone working in the PS, except teachers nurses and doctors. A maximum 10 year contract and then out.
 

Trainwreck

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The pretence that the the heads of departments (do they call themselves Director Generals or some such similar loftiness) are in any way comparable to running a private sector organisation of similar scale is a joke.
Presumably, this suggestion would be an admission that at the moment the taxpayer is paying peanuts and those jobs are currently filled by monkeys.


So, I will agree to it, if we also agree the necessary corollary; that all those in the top few grades need to be fired and open applications, strictly from people not currently in the PS be held to replace them (naturally, these "people we want to attract with higher pay" must by definition not be currently in the PS).
 

SeanieFitz

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Privatise the whole lot, health, education, security, social welfare, water, etc etc. Privatise the whole lot I say
Look how efficient the refuse collection service is since privatisation and not to mention the rail and water service in UK. Big successes all!
 

Trainwreck

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Privatise the whole lot, health, education, security, social welfare, water, etc etc. Privatise the whole lot I say
Look how efficient the refuse collection service is since privatisation and not to mention the rail and water service in UK. Big successes all!

Nobody is saying that. Take a Valium dear.


My refuse collection has improved massively in Dublin since privatisation. And that is despite massive regulation being heaped on the providers that councils never had adhere to.

The first decent bus service to get me to and from the airport? Dublin Bus or CIE couldn't manage it in decades, but a private operator came and showed them how to do it.

Not sure about the UK, don't live there. But don't divorce cost from supply. The British railways were costing a fortune in public ownership and facing financial collapse prior to privatisation.
 

Florence

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If top civil servants get a pay rise, politicians get a pay rise. Turkeys and Ch5ristmas and all that.
the politicians are linked to the Principal Officer grade so hopefully they wouldn't get a rise as the PO grade is nothing to do with IT.

Now if they do go ahead and increase PS IT rates then maybe our brassnecked politicians would change the salary linkeage; after all they do have to cope with modern technology ie manage the state of the art mobile phones they can buy with taxpayers money, send texts in boring Dail debates etc..
 

hurling_lad

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OK, first off, what would happen is that the numpty lifetime PS incumbents would simply get a big fat pay rise.

Secondly, what is the first thing that happens when you apply for a PS job? Yep, they ask you "what experience do you have working in the PS? None? Oh dear.". So this would just more cream for PS insiders.


This is what I propose. A maximum 10 year limit on anyone working in the PS, except teachers nurses and doctors. A maximum 10 year contract and then out.
I would contend that is what is currently happening in many instances: the senior management salaries in the PS are not attractive to external candidates, so it is only PS/CS lifers who apply for and get all of the top jobs.

I would certainly be in favour of fixed term contracts for such top jobs, but pay would have to hugely improved.
 


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