To deter antisocial behaviour,small fines on parents of antisocial children?

patslatt

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Frequently, there are depressing media stories that parents of antisocial children are indifferent to their antisocial behaviour and even insult people who complain to them. This makes it difficult for the gardai to deal with the antisocial behaviour when it falls short of criminal activity. But even when it amounts to petty criminal activity,the gardai and the courts usually are reluctant to take actions that could lead to incarceration of teenage culprits for fear of turning them into hardened criminals.

What to do? The gardai could be given wide discretion to apply small fines for antisocial behaviour to the parent or parents of the offending children for petty criminal activity.According to economic theory,when something is taxed,you get less of it,so fines could substitute here as a tax.Fines need to be small assuming the culprits come predominantly from single mother social welfare families,as little as €10 for a first offence,with a limit on the number of fines in a given year of maybe ten,or a few hundred euro,to prevent potential abuse of garda discretion. To prevent the courts from being clogged up by appeals of fines,the fine on appeals would have to be set at a high minimum,say €100, to deter nuisance appeals and waste of gardai time.
 


G

Gimpanzee

Screw small fines..............large fines withheld from Social Welfare if necessary.
"But... but... collective punishment... someone... think.... children.... fascist."

Sigh. We'll never be allowed to find out if it could work.
 

typical

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What makes the gardai qualified to judge the social impact of any given behavior?

Either something is illegal or it isn't, if it isn't, it's not the business of the gardai. If it is they should do their job. If prison doesn't work or isn't applicable, there's always fines or community service.

If we reduce the quality of justice, we do so for all. I don't trust the gardai to do this fairly or properly, obviously you don't either because you limited their ability to issue fines. It makes this a stupid reactionary idea, by definition.
 

councilkid

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Yep, let the little feckers run riot until they're old enough to have their own sprogs, i.e. fifteen.
 

patslatt

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Civil offence,not a criminal offence, at first

What makes the gardai qualified to judge the social impact of any given behavior?

Either something is illegal or it isn't, if it isn't, it's not the business of the gardai. If it is they should do their job. If prison doesn't work or isn't applicable, there's always fines or community service.

If we reduce the quality of justice, we do so for all. I don't trust the gardai to do this fairly or properly, obviously you don't either because you limited their ability to issue fines. It makes this a stupid reactionary idea, by definition.
Antisocial behaviour is a continuum from mild to threatening to violent. The gardai have the training to determine when it crosses the line into petty criminal behaviour.

The problem with doing the job of deterring patterns of repeated antisocial behaviour is the enormous amount of time it takes the gardai to repeatedly return to the scenes of behaviour and the enormous paperwork associated with prosecutions. This doesn't seem possible barring the creation of a police state which wouldn't be affordable anyway. A fine low enough to punish but- if a court hearing is contemplated-high enough to deter such a hearing could be an alternative to the police state solution. The small fines could be treated as a civil offence,not a criminal offence,for the first or second offence,depending on the seriousness of the crime. Giving the gardai the discretion to reduce a petty criminal offence to a civil offense is reducing the quality of justice but in favour of the defendant but isn't plea bargaining similar in principal?
 

The Caped Cod

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Can't control the sprog then state not supporting sprog.
And I'm sure there'd be absolutely no chance of abuse.

Don't get on with Gard, Gard accuses your children of antisocial behaviour and you lose your allowence.

As always, you stick to the theory and never imagine that in Ireland,of all places, all thepower you always want to give the government might be abused
 

owedtojoy

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Feb 27, 2010
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I've been pushing Mark Kleiman's ideas on another thread so I might as well post them here too.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lDr3DQnHo]YouTube - Filling Up Prisons Without Fighting Crime: Mark Kleiman on America's Criminal Justice System[/ame]
 

typical

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The problem with doing the job of deterring patterns of repeated antisocial behaviour is the enormous amount of time it takes the gardai to repeatedly return to the scenes of behaviour and the enormous paperwork associated with prosecutions.
Is "repeatedly return" a euphemism for investigate and "paperwork" a euphemism for a detailed catalog of proof?

Your point seems to be that, because our current system of justice is to complicated for the police and judiciary to operate properly, we should empower the gardai have the power to issue fines for anything they consider to be "anti-social".

Using your system, farting in company might cost you E50 with no right to appeal. (And yes, I believe there are gardai that are exactly that petty.)
 

patslatt

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Is "repeatedly return" a euphemism for investigate and "paperwork" a euphemism for a detailed catalog of proof?

Your point seems to be that, because our current system of justice is to complicated for the police and judiciary to operate properly, we should empower the gardai have the power to issue fines for anything they consider to be "anti-social".

Using your system, farting in company might cost you E50 with no right to appeal. (And yes, I believe there are gardai that are exactly that petty.)
The victims of antisocial acts might have a different perspective on cumbersome legalistic procedures that require enormous garda time, depriving victims of protection under the law. People charged would have the right to appeal and the charges would legally be downgraded from criminal to civil under my proposal. Do you want the gardai to pursue criminal charges against kids as young as 10 to see justice done?
 


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