To what extent should the economy be allowed trump society?

Disillusioned democrat

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FG’s current mantra about economic recovery has chilling echos of FF’s “we need a strong economy to build the society we want”. We saw in 2008 how the economy was built on quicksand and for many in society (but tellingly not all) 2008 marked a juddering step backwards in terms of the standard of living, hopes and expectations.

FG cheerleaders here bring good news daily about GDP, GNP, employment growth, rent increases and home value increases and trumpet the recovered “ecomony”, but pooh pooh anyone who mentions the crises in law and order, health or housing.
Our economy is still very much built on quicksand (effectively based on low cost resources and low tax rates for FDI) and will suffer more than most when the global recovery runs out of steam, and then we’ll be told, I’m sure how there’s no longer any capacity to address the societal issues.

So, at what stage to we draw a line under the genuinely phenomenal economic recovery fuelled by Irish citizens resilience, low cost and global economy and actually solve the issues FG have been allowing (or encouraging some would say) to fester over the past decade?
 


Trainwreck

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The two things aren't separable. They are different facets of the same thing.


Hence the OP doesn't actually make any sense.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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The two things aren't separable. They are different facets of the same thing.


Hence the OP doesn't actually make any sense.
Except all you hear from FG and its supporters is how great the economy is doing...just like FF in 2005 - putting society on hold until "after" the economy, that's exactly what FF used to say as they inflated the bubble, like FG are doing now.

If we don't look back we'll never learn.

FG SHOULD be doing both, but I think even the most objective observer would notice how law, health and housing are in a complete jock and are getting scant attention other than lip service. The risible excuse that we couldn't "afford" to investigate police corruption being a point in case.
 

Gin Soaked

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You can't have any sort of social cohesion without an economy .

And, as it is now, many in our society are actively excluding themselves from any contribution whilst making the biggest demands and greatest burdens.

We need someone to call out the welfare dependent breeders and recidivist criminals out as being sociopaths, just as much as the handful of "evil elites"...

Not nice. Not PC. But true.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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You can't have any sort of social cohesion without an economy .

And, as it is now, many in our society are actively excluding themselves from any contribution whilst making the biggest demands and greatest burdens.

We need someone to call out the welfare dependent breeders and recidivist criminals out as being sociopaths, just as much as the handful of "evil elites"...

Not nice. Not PC. But true.
100% - but the track we're on now is all about GDP, GNP, house prices, rent recovery, etc. - there's no reform agenda in the government, so 3 - 5 - 7 years from now when the next downturn occurs we'll still have the breeders, the parasites and the scumbags on BOTH ends of the spectrum.
 

Trainwreck

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Except all you hear from FG and its supporters is how great the economy is doing...just like FF in 2005 - putting society on hold until "after" the economy, that's exactly what FF used to say as they inflated the bubble, like FG are doing now.

If we don't look back we'll never learn.

FG SHOULD be doing both, but I think even the most objective observer would notice how law, health and housing are in a complete jock and are getting scant attention other than lip service. The risible excuse that we couldn't "afford" to investigate police corruption being a point in case.
Health, housing, education, food, clothing, entertainment, etc. All just goods and services. Produced by the productive capacity of people (individuals), interacting and working and trading with one another...

...society
 

paulp

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Agree,

If FG came out and said they would end homelessness - and actually did end it, they'd be back in power after the next election. (imho)

I know there are loads of things that need addressing, but pick one and fix it.
 

HarshBuzz

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Wow, a FG bashing thread. :p

The crises you mention have been there for very many years. Health particularly.

Here's a horrible thought for you at Christmastime: Irish people don't care all that much about these things.
 

SamsonS

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FG’s current mantra about economic recovery has chilling echos of FF’s “we need a strong economy to build the society we want”. We saw in 2008 how the economy was built on quicksand and for many in society (but tellingly not all) 2008 marked a juddering step backwards in terms of the standard of living, hopes and expectations.

FG cheerleaders here bring good news daily about GDP, GNP, employment growth, rent increases and home value increases and trumpet the recovered “ecomony”, but pooh pooh anyone who mentions the crises in law and order, health or housing.
Our economy is still very much built on quicksand (effectively based on low cost resources and low tax rates for FDI) and will suffer more than most when the global recovery runs out of steam, and then we’ll be told, I’m sure how there’s no longer any capacity to address the societal issues.

So, at what stage to we draw a line under the genuinely phenomenal economic recovery fuelled by Irish citizens resilience, low cost and global economy and actually solve the issues FG have been allowing (or encouraging some would say) to fester over the past decade?
I actually am optimistic that 2018 will see improvements in the homelessness and housing situation.

Health - not optimistic. And I could have posted that anytime over the last 40 years. If it was possible that the 10 year all party strategy was implemented, then maybe it might start to address the issues in health.

Justice-pessimistic. From top to bottom needs reform. Whether its the bail laws, the guards, the fact a solicitor doesen't display his prices, the monopoly barristers have, the lack of prison space, lenient sentencing etc. More than any other part of Irish society, they are masters of the long game in justice, ride out the crisis, time will catch up with any minster or government, or a crisis somewhere else will move attention away.
 

Dame_Enda

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It matters little to the poor that the 1% are making a killing. Economic growth should be used to reconcile the publics desire to keep more of their pay packet on the one hand, while also providing decent public services on the other hand.

I am very concerned by the extent to which the govts tax take is comprised of indirect taxes. This is regressive, and contributes to not being able to pay the rent, leading to homelessness and people dropping health insurance, which means they end up on the public system instead, with greater costs to the taxpayer at a time when the govt is preaching cutting tax rates.
 

paulp

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Wow, a FG bashing thread. :p

The crises you mention have been there for very many years. Health particularly.

Here's a horrible thought for you at Christmastime: Irish people don't care all that much about these things.
Would you not like to see a significant improvement in just one of the burning issues, justice/health/homelessness, if for no other reason than to be able to throw it back to Disillusioned?

In fairness to FG, in terms of social policy, they have taken on the 8th amendment after decades of FF ignoring it.
 

HarshBuzz

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Would you not like to see a significant improvement in just one of the burning issues, justice/health/homelessness, if for no other reason than to be able to throw it back to Disillusioned?

In fairness to FG, in terms of social policy, they have taken on the 8th amendment after decades of FF ignoring it.
And SSM, let's not forget. FF wouldn't have touched that with a bargepole.

The 'economy not society' mantra doesn't really wash as you need a strong economy to fund programs.

But....you also need strong government. Does anyone really think a minority government is in a position to take on the PS unions in Health? If Irish people would stop voting for the local loudmouth councillor and start voting in serious parties, then we could make more progress.
 

paulp

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And SSM, let's not forget. FF wouldn't have touched that with a bargepole.

The 'economy not society' mantra doesn't really wash as you need a strong economy to fund programs.

But....you also need strong government. Does anyone really think a minority government is in a position to take on the PS unions in Health? If Irish people would stop voting for the local loudmouth councillor and start voting in serious parties, then we could make more progress.
True, SSM as well.

Health is a basket case, hard to see what can be done there tbh

But homelessness, that could be fixed if the will was there, and that could be a legacy that would stand well to the country and the government that addresses it.
 

Hitchcock

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You can't have any sort of social cohesion without an economy .

And, as it is now, many in our society are actively excluding themselves from any contribution whilst making the biggest demands and greatest burdens.

We need someone to call out the welfare dependent breeders and recidivist criminals out as being sociopaths, just as much as the handful of "evil elites"...

Not nice. Not PC. But true.
That's some conflation given the power and economic differentials involved.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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True, SSM as well.

Health is a basket case, hard to see what can be done there tbh

But homelessness, that could be fixed if the will was there, and that could be a legacy that would stand well to the country and the government that addresses it.
Actually health is ironically probably one of the easiest.

Eliminate the two tier system in public hospitals and use private hospitals as service providers.

The cost and effort that goes into maintaining the two tier system is a huge part of the problem.
 

HarshBuzz

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True, SSM as well.

Health is a basket case, hard to see what can be done there tbh

But homelessness, that could be fixed if the will was there, and that could be a legacy that would stand well to the country and the government that addresses it.
You won't address homelessness just by building homes - you also need to tackle the underlying root causes. Which is a very thorny issue indeed.
 

Gin Soaked

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100% - but the track we're on now is all about GDP, GNP, house prices, rent recovery, etc. - there's no reform agenda in the government, so 3 - 5 - 7 years from now when the next downturn occurs we'll still have the breeders, the parasites and the scumbags on BOTH ends of the spectrum.
I'd love to see a big expose of the "poverty industry ". End to End, how much money is made by whom. Not just the Chief Executives , but the fundraising processes. Chuggers, text message processing, failed community projects. The whole lot.

Nowhere in the coverage of the housing crisis do we discuss unreasonable entitlement. And the consequences of fecklessness.

We need to build more, and ensure that low to middle income families can thrive, and that single people can live with dignity in one bed apartments. We need affordable housing to remain competitive.

But there has to be an emphasis on responsibility. And on how 'not living where you grew up " is normal for most people.
 

Dame_Enda

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Poverty is a major cause of crime, and the better off need to realise that before they further impoverish the lower classes with indirect taxation. It doesnt mean most poor people are criminals - they are not. But there is a big correlation between anti social types of crime and poverty. Its a different story obviously with white collar crime.
 

paulp

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You won't address homelessness just by building homes - you also need to tackle the underlying root causes. Which is a very thorny issue indeed.
not trivializing it, but relative to health, i think it could be resolved
 


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