Too many Irish university students unable for university education, OECD study says

patslatt

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See OECD finds literacy an issue among university students

Students and graduates in the UK and Ireland ranked among the worst internationally for literacy and numeracy in the OECD study.

While the very rapid expansion of third level education in the Celtic Tiger succeeded in turning out large numbers of graduates to fill booming job markets, standards of literacy and numeracy among students have dropped according to anecdotal comments by college lecturers who blame secondary schools.

Maybe primary schools whose academic results are unknown share the blame,unlike the secondary schools subject to the JC and LC exams. However,exam markings for the LC must be setting too low a bar for university entrance. Universities are also to blame as they compensate for insufficient capitation funding by raising revenues with "bums on seats", allowing entry to students who they know have a low chance of succeeding.

It looks like the Irish self congratulatory tendency has blindsided the whole Irish educational establishment to the relatively low standards of many students.
 
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Sister Mercedes

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We're sending people to college who should be doing technical apprenticeships instead. We're failing both them and the college students who's degrees are dumbed down to accommodate students who aren't suited to them.

Time to get over this obsession with a 'university' education.
 

patslatt

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See OECD finds literacy an issue among university students

Students and graduates in the UK* and Ireland ranked among the worst internationally for literacy and numeracy in the OECD study.

While the very rapid expansion of third level education in the Celtic Tiger succeeded in turning out large numbers of graduates to fill booming job markets, standards of literacy and numeracy among students have dropped according to anecdotal comments by college lecturers who blame secondary schools.

Maybe primary schools whose academic results are unknown share the blame,unlike the secondary schools subject to the JC and LC exams. However,exam markings for those must be setting too low a bar for university entrance. Universities are also to blame as they compensate for insufficient capitation funding by raising revenues with "bums on seats", allowing entry to students who they know have a low chance of succeeding.

It looks like the Irish self congratulatory tendency has blindsided the whole Irish educational establishment to the relatively low standards of many students.
*Students with poor literacy and numeracy skills should not attend university, study suggests - Telegraph
 

patslatt

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We're sending people to college who should be doing technical apprenticeships instead. We're failing both them and the college students who's degrees are dumbed down to accommodate students who aren't suited to them.

Time to get over this obsession with a 'university' education.
DUMBING DOWN

As the Hollywood studio guy said about movies, "We've been dumbing down so long, we've succeeded"!

ALTERNATIVE MODEL TO APPRENTICESHIP

High quality technical apprenticeships like those in Germany's huge mechanical engineering industries require high quality secondary school graduates. Unlike mechanical engineering, not many Irish industries are suited to high quality apprenticeships apart from construction trades like plumber and electrician.

There is an alternative model. Biotech graduates at Carlow IT were trained to hit the ground running in biotech factories, thanks to the close relationships Carlow IT developed with the biotechs on their workforce specifics. Courses were a form of simulated apprenticeship, I suppose. The limited academic quality of the education could be a disadvantage in the long run to students capable of a biotech university degree, however.

US community colleges are successful in the jobs market through such close relationships with local and regional businesses.

There are political moves to convert many ITs to universities. This could be a disaster as lecturers who offer practical skills based on experience would waste years of their time preoccupied with doing PhDs.Similarly, Ireland's technical colleges had a high international reputation for their focus on training for trades but they lost a lot of that focus on becoming colleges of technology and ITs.
 
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Odyessus

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We're sending people to college who should be doing technical apprenticeships instead. We're failing both them and the college students who's degrees are dumbed down to accommodate students who aren't suited to them.

Time to get over this obsession with a 'university' education.

Agreed. That's "whose".
 

SAT

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See OECD finds literacy an issue among university students

Students and graduates in the UK and Ireland ranked among the worst internationally for literacy and numeracy in the OECD study.

While the very rapid expansion of third level education in the Celtic Tiger succeeded in turning out large numbers of graduates to fill booming job markets, standards of literacy and numeracy among students have dropped according to anecdotal comments by college lecturers who blame secondary schools.

Maybe primary schools whose academic results are unknown share the blame,unlike the secondary schools subject to the JC and LC exams. However,exam markings for those must be setting too low a bar for university entrance. Universities are also to blame as they compensate for insufficient capitation funding by raising revenues with "bums on seats", allowing entry to students who they know have a low chance of succeeding.

It looks like the Irish self congratulatory tendency has blindsided the whole Irish educational establishment to the relatively low standards of many students.
A large part of the problem is the points system coupled with loose course requirements set by the colleges.

For example, a student can do a science degree having only done ordinary level maths because they achieved the necessary points in other completely unrelated subjects. Needless to say a science lecturer at 3rd level would find such a student's numeracy severely wanting. It would probably serve both the students and the colleges better if there were stricter entry requirements for courses and so, for example, higher level maths should be a prerequisite for doing a science degree. The students skill set should be shaped to fit the course rather than the course being shaped to fit the students.

There is also a question mark over the value and relevancy of some of the degree courses offered at the low end of the points scale and so as employers are well aware not all degrees are equal. Having said that if someone wants to study these subjects and are willing to pay for it - why not?
 
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Weevil

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College is no longer about further education, it's about social aspiration.

I blame women's liberation; women are obsessed with the appearence of success rather than the utilitarianism that men tend to reward.
 

Odyessus

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College is no longer about further education, it's about social aspiration.

I blame women's liberation; women are obsessed with the appearence of success rather than the utilitarianism that men tend to reward.

Incoming! :shock2:
 

patslatt

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A large part of the problem is the points system coupled with loose course requirements set by the colleges.

For example, a student can do a science degree having only done ordinary level maths because they achieved the necessary points in other completely unrelated subjects. Needless to say a science lecturer at 3rd level would find such a student's numeracy severely wanting. It would probably serve both the students and the colleges better if there were stricter entry requirements for courses and so, for example, higher level maths should be a prerequisite for doing a science degree. The students skill set should be shaped to fit the course rather than the course being shaped to fit the students.

There is also a question mark over the value and relevancy of some of the degree courses offered at the low end of the points scale and so as employers are well aware not all degrees are equal. Having said that if someone wants to study these subjects and are willing to pay for it - why not?
SOCIAL SKILLS

Maybe some students in undemanding course develop social skills that can be a great asset in the jobs market. A high level of spoken English and good communication skills,including body language and facial expressions, go a long way in business.
 

SAT

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SOCIAL SKILLS

Maybe some students in undemanding course develop social skills that can be a great asset in the jobs market. A high level of spoken English and good communication skills,including body language and facial expressions, go a long way in business.
I suspect an employer looking for someone with business skills would look first at applicants with a degree in business.

I am open to persuasion but apart from hobbyists I see little if any use in, for example, UCC's school of Asian studies. In an environment of limited resources I personally wonder how such subjects make the cut.

UCC's course literature lists career opportunities they believe derive from a particular course. For Asian studies they list none.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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We're sending people to college who should be doing technical apprenticeships instead. We're failing both them and the college students who's degrees are dumbed down to accommodate students who aren't suited to them.

Time to get over this obsession with a 'university' education.
There is also the problem that Irelands population ranks amongst the lowest IQ in the western world.

Suits FFFGLAB anyway. Dummies are easier to rule and exploit :)
 

SAT

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There is also the problem that Irelands population ranks amongst the lowest IQ in the western world.

Suits FFFGLAB anyway. Dummies are easier to rule and exploit :)
Ireland is ranked 50th in the world (ave IQ 92) according to a British Professor of Psychology, Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen, a Finnish Professor of Political Science, but these findings have been the subject of much controversy.
 
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Dame_Enda

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Maybe the 10 hours a week spent teaching superstition in second level would be better directed to the literacy and numerous. Make religion an optional subject.
 

Ex celt

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There is also the problem that Irelands population ranks amongst the lowest IQ in the western world.

Suits FFFGLAB anyway. Dummies are easier to rule and exploit :)
A Victorian Study,measuring the circumference of catholic irish skulls,established this beyond doubt.
 

silverharp

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Maybe the 10 hours a week spent teaching superstition in second level would be better directed to the literacy and numerous. Make religion an optional subject.
10? my kids in primary have 45 minutes a week and I have checked around and a lot of primary schools have quietly dropped the amount of time spent on it to spend time on other things
 

silverharp

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the complaint I have seen is that there is too much focus on trying to get the low achievers through which is fair enough but not enough focus on trying to beat the average in school. The gov need to start defunding courses in college . how many dumb Communications and Journalism places does the gov. pay for every year? will we get the cancer of large gender and women studies department babysitting a generation of malcontents?
 

Sync

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Yeah there's a lot of IT courses out there in the 250 mark, which means you can get it with an average of 42%. Which is ridiculous.

There needs to be a re-evaluation of the costs expended on people clearly not equipped for higher education at the point of qualification and look at cheaper alternatives. There's also a problem of an overabundance of non-essential courses. Look at 2015. There are 45 courses with "Media" in them.

Then use the savings to bolster the educational infrastructure of the people who ARE qualified for meaningful courses, or for people who are qualified but come from poor backgrounds and struggle with costs.
 


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