Top 10% of the population own 89% of the wealth.

Clanrickard

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Kommunist

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Yes there is a connection, yes. There are groups of people who are not at all motivated to improve their own lot in life and don't bother to stick with education despite the supports that we rightly have in place to help them, or are too busy taking drugs to really give a toss about anything.



I agree with healthcare being privatized as long as it is free at source. The state has shown itself incapable of running a decent health service.
I don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion and I hope you go to America and examine the privatized healthcare system there and how it treats those who fall into debt (cutting people off life support while they have cancer.)
 

Kommunist

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Far too much if you ask me....

"This note examines the latest OECD data (Taxing Wages 2014-2015) on the progressivity of the Irish income tax system in comparison with other OECD countries. It finds that according to OECD measures the Irish system is the most progressive and that taxes in Ireland are relatively low on those with average incomes and below."

Ireland has the Most Progressive Income Tax System in the EU | Public Policy, Public Expenditure & GNP
Wait, do you live in Ireland?
 

making waves

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He does but in other jurisdictions.
How much does redacted pay in taxes - here or anywhere else?

How much does Donald Trump pay in taxes?

The elites have a myriad of mechanisms (all put in place by their political lapdogs) to avoid paying taxes - and large pots of corporate welfare to pad their wallets.

The 99% carry the can for their greed and avarice.
 

tsarbomb

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I don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion and I hope you go to America and examine the privatized healthcare system there and how it treats those who fall into debt (cutting people off life support while they have cancer.)
Ok, fair enough.

I did stress "free at source" though. I don't want to emulate the American model because it provides bad outcomes for sick people.

Wait, do you live in Ireland?
Have since I started posting here....
 

Kommunist

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Ok, fair enough.

I did stress "free at source" though. I don't want to emulate the American model because it provides bad outcomes for sick people.



Have since I started posting here....
Do you understand that the way capitalism works is not by limitations or regulations and that the model in America is the direction we are headed with the attacks on the HSE, home helps, etc. It is either one or the other in this situation and it's slowly getting worse.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Kommunist

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This idea that the wealthy contribute to society is absolute bogus. They are wealthy because the nature of employer-employee is exploitative. They make a profit from us as workers. Being born into wealth increases your chances of being able to accumulate wealth, because you have starting capital and a family name, Machiavelli would have called this virtue.

I didn't say all wealthy people are stupid or made that claim, I'm sure many of them are intelligent and know exactly what they are doing. I'm merely pointing out the statistics.

Also wealth inequality in Ireland is interesting too - austerity measures have seen an increase in the accumulation of capital in fewer hands. This isn't a coincidence but what's happening in virtually every country that follows neoliberal shock therapy. I like to compare it to what happened in Russia under Yeltsin. NAMA etc.
 

tsarbomb

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Do you understand that the way capitalism works is not by limitations or regulations and that the model in America is the direction we are headed with the attacks on the HSE, home helps, etc. It is either one or the other in this situation and it's slowly getting worse.
No, that's a false dichotomy you're presenting if ever I've read one. It's not simply a choice between libertarianism and socialism. If you are referring to budget cutbacks in some areas of spending recently, that was due to the recession that was casued by government overspend and euro membership.

I maintain that the HSE should be shut down and replaced with a private model with certain regulations.
 

Clanrickard

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How much does redacted pay in taxes - here or anywhere else?

How much does Donald Trump pay in taxes?

The elites have a myriad of mechanisms (all put in place by their political lapdogs) to avoid paying taxes - and large pots of corporate welfare to pad their wallets.

The 99% carry the can for their greed and avarice.
That is the fault of the governments concerned. If the tax code was constructed properly it would difficult to evade taxes.
 

Kommunist

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No, that's a false dichotomy you're presenting if ever I've read one. It's not simply a choice between libertarianism and socialism. If you are referring to budget cutbacks in some areas of spending recently, that was due to the recession that was casued by government overspend and euro membership.

I maintain that the HSE should be shut down and replaced with a private model with certain regulations.
It's a choice between capital and labour and capital wins in 10/10 situations, just like it has triumphed in Ireland whilst using the state. Right - so you think the HSE should be replaced with an America "pay for your life" system where only the wealthy survive and those who can't afford it are indebted for life, or their relatives are or simply refused service.

You are a nice person.
 

mr_anderson

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Would you consider it easier or more difficult to accumulate wealth/capital if you're from a privileged background or you aren't?

DO you think the student that has to work a part time job for instance has a better chance of performing academically than the student who does not?

There's also the added mix that house prices are at a level unseen before and my generation (people born in the 1990s) are significantly later than the previous one in purchasing their own homes. Obviously this effects those from a privileged background less.
Yes of course.
My point is that the kids of privilaged parents still work their asses off regardless.

I know someone who will inherit well over €100m.
But that probably won't be for another 30 years, as at least one of his parents will probably live until 100.

In the meantime, he studied his ass off to get into medicine in UCD.
(No amount of money can buy you a place there)
And has since become a consultant.

The other people I know who shall inherit wealth became solicitors & accountants etc.
They all worked just as hard as those who won't inherit anything.

There's a belief on this site that the kids of wealthy parents are given a free ride.
They're not.
They work just as hard as everyone else.
 

Kommunist

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Did this person who studied his ass off have to work a part time job to pay his rent and eat? I'm sure he was not applicable to the grant.

Poverty among the student base is pretty well recorded:

58% of Students Miss Meals to Stay in College! | Union of Students in Ireland

Does he fall into any of these categories?

Being born with a silver spoon makes life easier, I don't see how you can't understand that. Not having to work for your rent. Not having to worry about food. Not having to worry about paying for your relatives nursing home. Not having to worry about relatives being homeless or starving. These are the conditions which impact working people. Being stuck in a rented home for the rest of their lives.

You may think it's "equal opportunity" but I'd consider the person who has everything paid for them by mammy and daddy far less hard working than the person who has to do the degree whilst having to survive simultaneously on pennies.
 

dbreen

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It's interesting that no one can discriminate between people who can make themselves rich from harvest central bank policies, engaging in fractional reserve lending vs the wealthy who actually inovate and create employment from their enterprise.
 

McTell

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No
Do you understand that the way capitalism works is not by limitations or regulations and that the model in America is the direction we are headed with the attacks on the HSE, home helps, etc. It is either one or the other in this situation and it's slowly getting worse.

That's the misuse of capitalism. But capitalism is bigger than that and we're all in it.

Without capital our ground zero is what it was for my ancestors 100-300 years ago; living in a mud hut with some sheep and growing a patch of oats.

Even the rich guy sitting back with "all his money in the bank" will have some in bonds being used by states, some in shares being used by companies, and some on deposit funding mortgages. To employ people and build things. Of course a lot will be wasted, and what isn't is "exploiting the workers". Money never sits still. We may resent him, but his money would have ended up going to much the same places if it was owned by 1,000 people or the state.
 

RasherHash

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Kommunist

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That's the misuse of capitalism. But capitalism is bigger than that and we're all in it.

Without capital our ground zero is what it was for my ancestors 100-300 years ago; living in a mud hut with some sheep and growing a patch of oats.

Even the rich guy sitting back with "all his money in the bank" will have some in bonds being used by states, some in shares being used by companies, and some on deposit funding mortgages. To employ people and build things. Of course a lot will be wasted, and what isn't is "exploiting the workers". Money never sits still. We may resent him, but his money would have ended up going to much the same places if it was owned by 1,000 people or the state.
No, capitalism naturally develops into monopoly capitalism. I recommend you read Lenin's 'Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism' where he shows that (exactly like today!) banks and mega-industries used capitalistic crises in order to crush smaller competitors and continue the accumulation of capital.

Eh, not particularly. https://www.amazon.com/Czechoslovakia-Believe-Not-Denver-Walker/dp/0946817057

That book above outlines how in a Socialist country (not perfect, not making this claim) capital was used for the benefit of society, not for a lone individual 'owner'. There are many more examples of capital in the hands of the working class via a socialist state being used for good.
 

Politics matters

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Yes of course.
My point is that the kids of privilaged parents still work their asses off regardless.

I know someone who will inherit well over €100m.
But that probably won't be for another 30 years, as at least one of his parents will probably live until 100.

In the meantime, he studied his ass off to get into medicine in UCD.
(No amount of money can buy you a place there)
And has since become a consultant.

The other people I know who shall inherit wealth became solicitors & accountants etc.
They all worked just as hard as those who won't inherit anything.

There's a belief on this site that the kids of wealthy parents are given a free ride.
They're not.
They work just as hard as everyone else.
But for those kids clearing 500 points in the leaving and going on to university isn't really a big deal. If a working class kid gets 350 points in his/her leaving and goes on to college or uni, surely that's a better result given their circumstances compared to the rich kid.

The children of the wealthy can essentially buy their CAO points from the sheer amount of resources that they have at their disposal through attending fee paying schools with superior facilities and support.



I'm not trying to condemn these people or their parents but we must recognise that such division within education is not something we as a society can allow to continue. This isn't a matter or being jealous of another kid because he has more money, we're talking about peoples education which for the most part greatly determines how someone will get on in life.
 


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