Trump Foreign Policy thread

Kevin Parlon

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Argument 4 is backward looking and ignores the Arab Peace Initiative and the recent raproachment between Israel and the Gulf Arab states especially Saudi Arabia as well as the peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. Personally I wouldnt be keen on a country if it was treating the Irish like the Israelis treat the Palestinians. Bibi is just another nasty nationalist leader like Putin and Milosevic.
It's the opposite of backward looking. It is the question of a people who were very nearly exterminated worrying about being exterminated by a populace that constantly glories in public declarations of extermination. You're blind.
 


Dame_Enda

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It's the opposite of backward looking. It is the question of a people who were very nearly exterminated worrying about being exterminated by a populace that constantly glories in public declarations of extermination. You're blind.
It wasnt the Arabs who committed the Holocaust (and please not more of the recycled pictures of the Grand Mufti in a few newsreels and allegations that were unproven at Nuremberg). It was the Arabs who were made to pay for the paranoia engendered by the Holocaust in the founders of the State of Israel. The Jews lived in the Arab world for thousands of years and were no more persecuted than the Christians there, and were not forced to leave until the Arab-Israeli war (and many left because they wanted to live in a Jewish state anyway). Its ironic given Israeli govts have always lobbied foreign govts against recognising the Armenian Genocide because of relations with Turkey. And can we please move on to the 21st century instead of endlessly rehashing what happened in WW2 because it was in Europe not Israel-Palestine. Its getting old at this stage. :roll:
 

davidcameron

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Those who criticise Trump's decision to withdraw the US from the Iran deal should ask why the US and the other Western powers didn't put pressure Iran to stop supporting Hezbollah in return for the lifting of sanctions.
 

Dame_Enda

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Those who criticise Trump's decision to withdraw the US from the Iran deal should ask why the US and the other Western powers didn't put pressure Iran to stop supporting Hezbollah in return for the lifting of sanctions.
Because Hezbollah has been quiet for years and is the largest party in Lebanon.

"Mondoweiss


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After the @USAmbIsrael went to a settlement last week on an official diplomatic visit, settler leaders are questioning if the Trump administration has quietly overturned a ban on ambassadors making stops to Israeli controlled areas over the Green Line."

https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1026966238117986304
 

owedtojoy

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1. Was there? And what before then? So now as long as you hold the land for x number of years you get "y"? Do you even see where this leads? Want to talk history? OK. Arabs are from the Arabian peninsula. Not the Mediterranean. Should they all evacuate back there? Of course not. This line of attack is garbage.
2. Yes, everyone is safe
3. A religion of a few million people might need to change the rules a bit when surrounded by over a billion others who want them to cease existing.
Dame Enda wins the point on this one.

Very few Israelis have ancestors who were in the Middle East before the 1920s, 100 years ago. Most arrived from Europe post-1945, or from Russia post-1970. The Palestinians who lived there once have been expelled, all but a remnant. The Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, in Gaza and abroad are what remain.

There is a word for it: Colonization & Ethnic Cleansing.

That being said, it is only one of the host of examples of displaced people who will never return to their ancestral homes - Germans to East Prussia (expelled 1945), Greeks from Asia Minor & Turks from Europe (expelled after 1920) and Serbs, Croats or Bosnians from various places in the former Yugoslavia. These "facts on the ground" are unchangeable without more murderous wars.

So I support the existence of Israel as a "fact on the ground", but there most be some recompense for Palestinians in a two-state solution.
 

Dame_Enda

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.....Trump said to tell Jordan king: Israel will have a PM named Muhammad if no deal....
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-said-to-tell-jordan-king-israel-will-have-a-pm-named-muhammad-if-no-deal/?utm_source=trump-said-to-tell-jordan-king-israel-will-have-a-pm-named-muhammad-if-no-deal&utm_medium=desktop-browser&utm_campaign=desktop-notifications

......Relating for Le Drian his White House conversation with the US president in late June, Abdullah said he had told Trump, “Many young Palestinians no longer want two states. They want one state with equal rights. The result would be Israel losing its Jewish character.”

As quoted by Channel 10, Trump then replied, “There’s logic in that. [If there’s one state], in a few years the Israeli prime minister’s name will be Muhammad.”

Elsewhere in the conversation, as quoted by the TV report, the king reportedly urged Trump, “Don’t present your [peace] plan now: There are too many difficulties right now. There’s no need to hurry to present the American peace plan.”

To which Trump, unimpressed, reportedly responded: “I want to advance a peace agreement in the Middle East, because if my administration cannot achieve a deal, no administration will be able to.”

The monarch then reportedly complained that he had yet to even see the much-anticipated US proposal, and neither had anyone in Europe.....
 

owedtojoy

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As quoted by Channel 10, Trump then replied, “There’s logic in that. [If there’s one state], in a few years the Israeli prime minister’s name will be Muhammad.”

Elsewhere in the conversation, as quoted by the TV report, the king reportedly urged Trump, “Don’t present your [peace] plan now: There are too many difficulties right now. There’s no need to hurry to present the American peace plan.”

To which Trump, unimpressed, reportedly responded: “I want to advance a peace agreement in the Middle East, because if my administration cannot achieve a deal, no administration will be able to.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-said-to-tell-jordan-king-israel-will-have-a-pm-named-muhammad-if-no-deal/?utm_source=trump-said-to-tell-jordan-king-israel-will-have-a-pm-named-muhammad-if-no-deal&utm_medium=desktop-browser&utm_campaign=desktop-notifications
If this is an example of Trump's "Foreign Policy" then I am unimpressed.

Trump has already shown himself an uncritical supporter of Israel and has the trust of no Arab country that sincerely supports the Palestinians. He demolished that opportunity by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem against the advice of every ally, and every Arab country.

By just maintaining the status quo, Israel wins. And the chances of Israel agreeing to a one-state solution are nil. It wants a powerless and toothless Palestine statelet or collection of cantons, with a "capital" that is not Jerusalem (Abu Dis has already been selected by the Israelis), where Israel runs the security services behind a front of Palestinian sovereignty. It will be the Occupation Legitimised.

Israel thinks Trump can deliver this for them, and he is trying by strong-arming Palestinians and Jordanians by threats to cut off aid.
 

Dame_Enda

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If this is an example of Trump's "Foreign Policy" then I am unimpressed.

Trump has already shown himself an uncritical supporter of Israel and has the trust of no Arab country that sincerely supports the Palestinians. He demolished that opportunity by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem against the advice of every ally, and every Arab country.

By just maintaining the status quo, Israel wins. And the chances of Israel agreeing to a one-state solution are nil. It wants a powerless and toothless Palestine statelet or collection of cantons, with a "capital" that is not Jerusalem (Abu Dis has already been selected by the Israelis), where Israel runs the security services behind a front of Palestinian sovereignty. It will be the Occupation Legitimised.

Israel thinks Trump can deliver this for them, and he is trying by strong-arming Palestinians and Jordanians by threats to cut off aid.
Israel does not win from the status quo. Haaretz had a report yesterday about a plan by Israel to annex the West Bank. That would turn the Jews into a minority in Israel (as defined by the Israeli govt). They would then have a choice on whether to let the Arabs there vote (unlikely) or to make their Apartheid official policy by denying the Arabs voting rights. That would further isolate Israel and further erode their support within the Democratic party, which is starting to show signs of fraying with the victories of pro-Palestinian primary candidates like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. There is now a Israel-critical bloc of around 80 Democratic Congressmen/women who increasingly vote for stuff Israel doesnt like, including supporting UNSCR 2334.
 

owedtojoy

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Israel does not win from the status quo. Haaretz had a report yesterday about a plan by Israel to annex the West Bank. That would turn the Jews into a minority in Israel (as defined by the Israeli govt). They would then have a choice on whether to let the Arabs there vote (unlikely) or to make their Apartheid official policy by denying the Arabs voting rights. That would further isolate Israel and further erode their support within the Democratic party, which is starting to show signs of fraying with the victories of pro-Palestinian primary candidates like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. There is now a Israel-critical bloc of around 80 Democratic Congressmen/women who increasingly vote for stuff Israel doesnt like, including supporting UNSCR 2334.
I see the roots of American alienation from Israel in the number of young Jews who no longer identify with it as a Jewish homeland. American Jews are still mostly Democrats, and longer term this will mean a diminution of support in the US for Israel.

The Israeli elite would not be so foolish as to hand power over to a Palestinian majority in a one-state solution. The option of "Bantustans", maybe with the fancy name of "cantons", on the South African model is the preferred option (next up is expulsion, or total ethnic cleansing), especially Bantustans where Israel wields the real muscle, and "pass laws" govern Palestinians' movements. Of course, there may be a "Federal" Palestinian "capital" in a glorified village like Abu Dis. This is the type of "Peace Plan" Trump is trying to deliver.

In the meantime, Israel is fine with the status quo. All is needs is Trump's fake "Peace Plan" to wrap it up in fancy packaging, and make it look good.
 

Analyzer

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Those who criticise Trump's decision to withdraw the US from the Iran deal should ask why the US and the other Western powers didn't put pressure Iran to stop supporting Hezbollah in return for the lifting of sanctions.
I recommend that anybody interested in what Hezbollah really represents watches videos by former resident of their controlled zones, Nisha Krisht. She grew up under Hezbollah.

And unlike the useless feminists sitting around in the sociology department, and in the media - she actually KNOWS what a real male patriachy really is like, to endure.
 

owedtojoy

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I recommend that anybody interested in what Hezbollah really represents watches videos by former resident of their controlled zones, Nisha Krisht. She grew up under Hezbollah.

And unlike the useless feminists sitting around in the sociology department, and in the media - she actually KNOWS what a real male patriachy really is like, to endure.
Never heard you complain about Hezbollah saving Bashir Al-Assad's ass, or their alliance with Vladimir Putin and Iran in Syria.

What is that all about?

Since the beginning of 2013, Hezbollah fighters have operated openly and in significant numbers across the border alongside their Syrian and Iraqi counterparts. They have enabled the regime to regain control of rebel-held areas in central Syria and have improved the effectiveness of pro-regime forces. The impact of Hezbollah’s involvement in Syria has been felt not just on the battlefield, where the regime now has momentum in many areas, but also in Lebanon where growing sectarian tensions have undermined security and stability.

http://www.understandingwar.org/report/hezbollah-syria
 

Analyzer

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Never heard you complain about Hezbollah saving Bashir Al-Assad's ass, or their alliance with Vladimir Putin and Iran in Syria.

What is that all about?

Since the beginning of 2013, Hezbollah fighters have operated openly and in significant numbers across the border alongside their Syrian and Iraqi counterparts. They have enabled the regime to regain control of rebel-held areas in central Syria and have improved the effectiveness of pro-regime forces. The impact of Hezbollah’s involvement in Syria has been felt not just on the battlefield, where the regime now has momentum in many areas, but also in Lebanon where growing sectarian tensions have undermined security and stability.

http://www.understandingwar.org/report/hezbollah-syria
Unfortunately, even you seem to be too stupid to grasp that ISIS and Al Aqaeda (both of whom benefitted from Obama's Foreign policy in the region) are even worse again than Hezbollah.

Hezbollah, happened to do the world a favour, on the one occassion when they took on Al Qaeda / the Fraud Syrian Army (neither Free, Syrian or an army - rather a collection of non-Syrian jihadi gangs) and ISIS.

And yes, you are hurting over this. They beat Obama's pals there.
 

owedtojoy

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Unfortunately, even you seem to be too stupid to grasp that ISIS and Al Aqaeda (both of whom benefitted from Obama's Foreign policy in the region) are even worse again than Hezbollah.

Hezbollah, happened to do the world a favour, on the one occassion when they took on Al Qaeda / the Fraud Syrian Army (neither Free, Syrian or an army - rather a collection of non-Syrian jihadi gangs) and ISIS.

And yes, you are hurting over this. They beat Obama's pals there.
So, far from been evil, Hezbollah are the good guys when they are on Assad and Putin's side?

Well, thank you, that gives us a clear perspective on the amoral outlook of a Putinbot.

"If you murder for their side, you are EVIL. If you murder for us, you are GOOD"
 

valamhic

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Dame_Enda

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"Trump says he would consider lifting sanctions on Russia if Moscow were to take steps to work with U.S. on issues like Syria and Ukraine. More from @Reuters interview:" https://reut.rs/2N4BlI3
 

caledhel

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Another "interesting" view on Trump's Foreign Policy.

Does Trump have a policy that can be called "Foreign". Could we just give him the Nobel Peace Prize so he can take his ego and just f*ck off into the night?

Yemen: Why is the US Helping Saudis Kill Children, Allying with al-Qaeda?

Yemen is Trump's Libya, only hundreds of times worse.
Trump is proving to be a realist in foreign affairs. You may be being caught up a bit by his rhetoric rather than his actions and that's what you should be looking at.

Yemen is a holdover from the previous administration. A new Saudi regime sees it as a way to demonstrate its influence in the region by propping up a vassal. There's an undercurrent of geopolitics in the region that have to do with the balance of power in the gulf with Saudi Arabia the declining and Iran the rising power. It's been that way for decades. It will only resolve with exhaustion and pressure from the international community.

The United States is in a situation where it has to maintain a tacit alliance with the Saudis and supplement its efforts to contain Iran. So it will continue to supply the Saudis until it can go to them and say it has become counter productive to continue the war. What will a successful parley look like? Don't know yet.

Trump is a bombastic pragmatist and that's not an unusual trait in historical figures. It can be successfully done. I'd say that he's cool headed and calculating in his own way. In fact the Americans may have needed this turn to arrest their decline. You shouldn't overlook that. This mini-crisis with Turkey is an example - they were covertly fuelling the radicalism in the region and are sympathetic to a new Caliphate (albeit one in which the Sultan resumes his proper role). Erdogan the Magnificent is a political reality and Turkey is a NATO ally. Nothing is simple.

Once again, it's important to look at what someone does or doesn't do rather than what they say. There's a level where one engages in politics to wage a character war and a level where one engages in politics to affect reality. It all depends which one you choose. I think Trump fights on both fronts. I don't agree with all of his objectives but do think that we're better off seeing America shake off some of its foreign influence and returning to it's tradition preoccupations of democracy, economic activity and freedom.

As for the danger he presents - that lies mostly in the mediocrity of domestic political culture. He'll probe and advance and if he isn't checked competently that could create a problem. It's a moment of melee; the greatest opportunity and greatest dangers are found exactly there.
 


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