Trump & Pence want a Hard Brexit, & only pay lip service to the Good Friday Agreement

owedtojoy

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The main "Mike Pence in Ireland" story is not that he is allowing Trump to fleece the American taxpayer, it is what he said in Dublin.


"Let me be clear.
The United States supports the United Kingdom’s decision to leave the European Union in Brexit,
But we also recognise the unique challenges on your northern border.
As the deadline for Brexit approaches, we urge Ireland and the European Union as well, to negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson, and work to reach an agreement that respects the United Kingdom’s sovereignty and minimises the disruption to commerce."

The sub-text here is plain. The priority is UK sovereignty, a clear reference to the Border. Varadkar and Coverney may talk up !good meetings" and "friendly relations" with the US Administration, but the air is turning distinctly frosty.


"Recognising" challenges and "minimising" disruption means that the Good Friday Agreement and the All-Ireland economy are secondary to the type of Brexit that Trump and the Tories want - one that will lead to a US -UK Trade Deal.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Ireland does not, and will not, count for much in that scenario. While Nancy Pelosi might threaten to block a Trade Deal that endangers the GFA, we cannot totally depend on that line of defence either. In two years she may be out of office, and maybe replaced with another Speaker to whom the GFA comes second to some other policy need.

Given Johnson's brinkmanship over the border, it is obvious that the severe pressure is to be put on Ireland to concede to British demands, probably in the form of a bilateral arrangement that will leave us in a limbo between the UK and the EU. The current US Administration would back Britain in that scenario.

The US motives for the policy shift from "honest broker" on Northern Ireland to being actively pro-UK (or rather pro-Tory) are not clear, except in some oncoming Trumpian world of nationalist power alliances, where the EU is perceived as a trading block hostile to US interests. Given the open Ireland economy, it is not in our interests to weaken the EU. The "Boston vs Berlin" debate is back, but in a totally different guise.

 


Watcher2

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They don't want a block as large as the EU to have the power that the potential holds. Trump is one of the biggest "win/lose" proponents I've known. His thinking is not just "how much can I win" but more importantly, "how much can you lose". He likes to see others lose, not just win himself. In fact, I'd wager he prefers others losses over his own wins because, well, he has had some spectacular losses himself. If no one else loses, he is the greatest loser of all.
 

Jim Car

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Funny reading the title. As has been the case for the last two or so years we have lectured everyone on the importance of a frictionless border to protect the GFA and peace. Have done this to no one more so than the UK. Now today we can read that we are prioritizing the single market over the GFA and the border. Meanwhile the UK as they have said all along seem to be the only ones that will honor and commit to not building any infostructure or putting any checks in place.



Lets see how the government and their moths pieces in the likes of IT spin this one.
 

McTell

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No
"...we urge Ireland and the European Union as well, to negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson"


Which is like is saying that so far the EU has NOT negotiated in good faith
 

Jim Car

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Which is like is saying that so far the EU has NOT negotiated in good faith
Well why should we presume they have negotiated in good faith? Its not like the EU has some special pass or moral compass that makes them immune from not doing so same goes for the UK. And I would add given the EUs track record over the last 10 plus years when it comes to difficult negotiations good faith is not something that automatically springs to mind. But apparently since 2016 and until Brexit is finished we are to forget and not mention that the EU could in any way be or at any time have been a flawed institution not matter how accurate the criticism.
 

Orbit v2

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"...we urge Ireland and the European Union as well, to negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson"


Which is like is saying that so far the EU has NOT negotiated in good faith
That was an incredibly ignorant comment from Pence. We all know that Johnson and co. don't get it. No Irish govt. is going to go down in history as the one that facilitated a hard border. Even if one happens, the EU negotiated in good faith with the May government and it was the Johnson administration that reneged on it.

It's one thing seeing British people not understanding this, but you would expect the US, at arm's length to see it. It's more of Trump's transactional style. He did a favour for Boris, and one wonders what he expects in return.
 

McTell

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No
//
the EU negotiated in good faith with the May government and it was the Johnson administration that reneged on it.

It's one thing seeing British people not understanding this, but you would expect the US, at arm's length to see it. It's more of Trump's transactional style. He did a favour for Boris, and one wonders what he expects in return.

To be fair, the May deal was rejected 3 times by the whole house of commons.

That done, the next step had to be closer to the EU or remain in - or further away from May's deal, and maybe no deal.
 

Orbit v2

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To be fair, the May deal was rejected 3 times by the whole house of commons.

That done, the next step had to be closer to the EU or remain in - or further away from May's deal, and maybe no deal.
Of course. I've always said those options should be put to the British people in a properly constructed referendum (ie multiple choices). What's objectionable is the notion that the EU or Ireland haven't negotiated in good faith.
 

CatullusV

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Funny reading the title. As has been the case for the last two or so years we have lectured everyone on the importance of a frictionless border to protect the GFA and peace. Have done this to no one more so than the UK. Now today we can read that we are prioritizing the single market over the GFA and the border. Meanwhile the UK as they have said all along seem to be the only ones that will honor and commit to not building any infostructure or putting any checks in place.



Lets see how the government and their moths pieces in the likes of IT spin this one.
"today we can read"?

Where?
 

owedtojoy

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Funny reading the title. As has been the case for the last two or so years we have lectured everyone on the importance of a frictionless border to protect the GFA and peace. Have done this to no one more so than the UK. Now today we can read that we are prioritizing the single market over the GFA and the border. Meanwhile the UK as they have said all along seem to be the only ones that will honor and commit to not building any infostructure or putting any checks in place.



Lets see how the government and their moths pieces in the likes of IT spin this one.
My God! They really exist!

People who believe the British and Boris Johnson negotiate in good faith!!!

Johnson's "commitment" to no infrastructure on the Border is a game of Brinkmanship - if the ROI + EU start customs inspections, Johnson will claim it as a "win", and that Brexit does not need a frictionless border.

With Johnson lying through his teeth on a daily basis about his fake "negotiations" with the EU, he just cannot be trusted to act in good faith.
 

Levellers

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Of course Trump wants the UK out of the EU so he can pick their bones, particularly the NHS, and plunder them.

Number of people who go bankrupt every year because of medical bills:
UK - 0
France - 0
Spain - 0
Portugal- 0
Denmark - 0
Australia - 0
Iceland - 0
Italy - 0
Finland - 0
Ireland - 0
Germany - 0
Netherlands - 0
Sweden - 0
Japan - 0
Chile - 0
Canada - 0
United States - 643,000
 
Last edited:

Orbit v2

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I'm sure this has been pointed out before but if this magic technical solution exists (max fac or whatever) then it will be used to write the backstop out of existence, some time post Brexit. So, it's all about who takes the risk should the technology not live up to expectation. The EU thinks it should be the UK.
 

owedtojoy

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Of course Trump wants the UK out of the EU so he can pick their bones, particularly the NHS, and plunder them.

Number of people who go bankrupt every year because of medical bills:
UK - 0
France - 0
Spain - 0
Portugal- 0
Denmark - 0
Australia - 0
Iceland - 0
Italy - 0
Finland - 0
Ireland - 0
Germany - 0
Netherlands - 0
Sweden - 0
Japan - 0
Chile - 0
Canada - 0
United States - 643,000
I think Trump on his last visit, and now Pence, have let a cat out of the bag.

The agenda is really all about Crony Capitalism, Trump's vulture cronies picking over the bones of the economies of these islands, and a weakened EU for future predation.
 

midlander12

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That was an incredibly ignorant comment from Pence. We all know that Johnson and co. don't get it. No Irish govt. is going to go down in history as the one that facilitated a hard border. Even if one happens, the EU negotiated in good faith with the May government and it was the Johnson administration that reneged on it.

It's one thing seeing British people not understanding this, but you would expect the US, at arm's length to see it. It's more of Trump's transactional style. He did a favour for Boris, and one wonders what he expects in return.
Well I certainly wouldn't expect the Trump-Pence administration to see it as they have never made any secret of their support for Brexit and the fact that Ireland figures little in their calculations. It might be a different story if a Democratic administration were in power though we cannot assume that now either - like Obama, they are as likely to prioritise Asia and Latin America over Europe.

I cannot understand why anyone is surprised by Pence's statement - this is not an administration noted for nuance or diplomacy and Pence did us a favour by showing us where we stand. I also cannot understand the simpering fawning over US leaders even when they are the foulest religious fundamentalists like Pence. Reading about Varadkar and his partner lunching with Pence and his wife (who teaches in a school which bans LGBT students and teachers) is just embarrassing. A short formal meeting minus the beau would have sufficed - no US company is going to change its mind about an investment because someone dissed Mike Pence.
 

Ardillaun

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Pence doesn’t have the first clue of, or interest in, Brexit. Keeping the eejit in chief reasonably happy for the day is his only goal.
 

Orbit v2

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Well I certainly wouldn't expect the Trump-Pence administration to see it as they have never made any secret of their support for Brexit and the fact that Ireland figures little in their calculations. It might be a different story if a Democratic administration were in power though we cannot assume that now either - like Obama, they are as likely to prioritise Asia and Latin America over Europe.

I cannot understand why anyone is surprised by Pence's statement - this is not an administration noted for nuance or diplomacy and Pence did us a favour by showing us where we stand. I also cannot understand the simpering fawning over US leaders even when they are the foulest religious fundamentalists like Pence. Reading about Varadkar and his partner lunching with Pence and his wife (who teaches in a school which bans LGBT students and teachers) is just embarrassing. A short formal meeting minus the beau would have sufficed - no US company is going to change its mind about an investment because someone dissed Mike Pence.
Well, it was just gratuitous and pointless. The old adage about a diplomat being an honest man sent abroad to lie for his country, certainly doesn't apply here. Quite the opposite perhaps.

Not sure I follow your point about Varadkar and his partner. Why would Pence and his wife's views on LGBT be a cause for embarrassment?
 

midlander12

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Well, it was just gratuitous and pointless. The old adage about a diplomat being an honest man sent abroad to lie for his country, certainly doesn't apply here. Quite the opposite perhaps.

Not sure I follow your point about Varadkar and his partner. Why would Pence and his wife's views on LGBT be a cause for embarrassment?
Embarrassing to see Varadkar fawning over them. The Pences would send them for conversion therapy if they had their way.
 

Glenshane4

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The main "Mike Pence in Ireland" story is not that he is allowing Trump to fleece the American taxpayer, it is what he said in Dublin.


"Let me be clear.
The United States supports the United Kingdom’s decision to leave the European Union in Brexit,
But we also recognise the unique challenges on your northern border.
As the deadline for Brexit approaches, we urge Ireland and the European Union as well, to negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson, and work to reach an agreement that respects the United Kingdom’s sovereignty and minimises the disruption to commerce."

The sub-text here is plain. The priority is UK sovereignty, a clear reference to the Border. Varadkar and Coverney may talk up !good meetings" and "friendly relations" with the US Administration, but the air is turning distinctly frosty.


"Recognising" challenges and "minimising" disruption means that the Good Friday Agreement and the All-Ireland economy are secondary to the type of Brexit that Trump and the Tories want - one that will lead to a US -UK Trade Deal.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Ireland does not, and will not, count for much in that scenario. While Nancy Pelosi might threaten to block a Trade Deal that endangers the GFA, we cannot totally depend on that line of defence either. In two years she may be out of office, and maybe replaced with another Speaker to whom the GFA comes second to some other policy need.

Given Johnson's brinkmanship over the border, it is obvious that the severe pressure is to be put on Ireland to concede to British demands, probably in the form of a bilateral arrangement that will leave us in a limbo between the UK and the EU. The current US Administration would back Britain in that scenario.

The US motives for the policy shift from "honest broker" on Northern Ireland to being actively pro-UK (or rather pro-Tory) are not clear, except in some oncoming Trumpian world of nationalist power alliances, where the EU is perceived as a trading block hostile to US interests. Given the open Ireland economy, it is not in our interests to weaken the EU. The "Boston vs Berlin" debate is back, but in a totally different guise.
Why should the members of the Trump government be friendly to Eire? When he was elected President, too many of your big-mouths pontificated about his suitability to be President. Why did they not leave judgement on that matter to the citizens of the USA? The Americans did have a war of independence.

Far too many Eirefolk interfered in the Brexit debate. The then Foreign Minister of Eire, a Mr Charles Flanagan even interfered in the Brexit referendum. The same Mr Flanagan who had suggested that the Vatican ambassador to Eire be expelled for alleged Vatican interference in the politics of Eire. Consistency does not seem to be Mr Flanagan's strong-point. Eire journalists have described the British voters as "stupid." It never seems to occur to Eirefolk that the British know their own business best.

The government of Eire has tried to use the oppressed Catholics of Northern Ireland to make it difficult for the UK to leave the EU.

The Americans and British have been extremely tolerant of Eire interference in their internal affairs. Will the people of Eire never learn that the rest of humanity was not created to be preached at by the people of Eire? Nor was it created to advance the ends of the people of Eire. Why are Eirefolk so arrogant?
 

death or glory

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Why should the members of the Trump government be friendly to Eire? When he was elected President, too many of your big-mouths pontificated about his suitability to be President. Why did they not leave judgement on that matter to the citizens of the USA? The Americans did have a war of independence.

Far too many Eirefolk interfered in the Brexit debate. The then Foreign Minister of Eire, a Mr Charles Flanagan even interfered in the Brexit referendum. The same Mr Flanagan who had suggested that the Vatican ambassador to Eire be expelled for alleged Vatican interference in the politics of Eire. Consistency does not seem to be Mr Flanagan's strong-point. Eire journalists have described the British voters as "stupid." It never seems to occur to Eirefolk that the British know their own business best.

The government of Eire has tried to use the oppressed Catholics of Northern Ireland to make it difficult for the UK to leave the EU.

The Americans and British have been extremely tolerant of Eire interference in their internal affairs. Will the people of Eire never learn that the rest of humanity was not created to be preached at by the people of Eire? Nor was it created to advance the ends of the people of Eire. Why are Eirefolk so arrogant?
It's not often we are on the same wavelength Glenshane, but for a change you are right this time.
You'll have that feel good feeling us prods have a lot of the time.
 


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