• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

TUI call for rejection of Social Partnership deal


Johnny

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
1,223
The leadership of the TUI have called for the rejection of the recently negotiated social partnership deal.

What will be the effect (if any) on the process if this call is successful and the TUI membership votes "No"?
 

cain1798

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
Messages
418
Johnny said:
The leadership of the TUI have called for the rejection of the recently negotiated social partnership deal.

What will be the effect (if any) on the process if this call is successful and the TUI membership votes "No"?
Firstly, it's not much of a surprise, welcome though it is.

The TUI has traditionally been to the left of the ASTI and th INTO.

Secondly, its effect will be fairly limited. The TUI is the smallest of the three teaching unions with about 12,000 members. It's a morale boost for anti-partnership trade unionists, but unless the ASTI, or preferably the ASTI and INTO join in, then it's not a critical mass.

Lastly, the decision will be taken at an ICTU delegate conference in September. Realistically, SIPTU is so big that unless every single other union in the state ganged up on them if SIPTU votes for it, then it will pass.
 

sean1

Active member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
104
Website
www.gaelport.com
The affect that Mandate members will have on a lot of Siptu members shouldn't be underestimated.

The more unions and union members that are against the deal will mean that it will be in for a bumpy ride from the start.
 

St Disibod

Active member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Messages
113
Johnny said:
What will be the effect (if any) on the process if this call is successful and the TUI membership votes "No"?
I would disagree with cain1798 on two counts- I think rejection by the TUI would have a considerable impact and I don't think they are snubbing social partnership (that's the ASTI's game). Rather, their problems are with the terms of the current agreement, not the idea of social partnership.

I find opposition to social partnership misguided and often immature in an anti-establishment-for-its-own-sake sort of a way. It's being led by a few academics that want to stand out from the crowd, and a few employers enganged in a game of pure cynicism.

If the TUI do turn down the deal, it sets a precedent for other unions. And though the TUI may be relatively small compared to the larger unions, it is not a small union on the wider scale and it is a well respected and influential one. More is going on here than meets the eye.
 

St Disibod

Active member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Messages
113
Gladstone said:
Why are they opposing the deal?
See page 4 of today's Irish Times. RTÉ's coverage is rather inadequate.

The gist is that they are being asked to accept a pay rise solely pegged to deal with inflation (10% over 27 months) yet it is conditioned on them accepting new responsibilities and work loads due to new legislation- in effect more work for the same money.

Also, the deal is conditional on them fulfilling their obligations under the new legislation but not the government providing the resources at its end. Similar to when roads were given new safety measures but with no additional funding to allow for them.

But overall, I feel it is opposition based upon teachers no longer being taken seriously on issues of education policy and just being bought off to fulfil government policies that are ill thought out. But that's just my opinion.
 

Gladstone

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
420
St Disibod said:
Gladstone said:
Why are they opposing the deal?
See page 4 of today's Irish Times. RTÉ's coverage is rather inadequate.

The gist is that they are being asked to accept a pay rise solely pegged to deal with inflation (10% over 27 months) yet it is conditioned on them accepting new responsibilities and work loads due to new legislation- in effect more work for the same money.

Also, the deal is conditional on them fulfilling their obligations under the new legislation but not the government providing the resources at its end. Similar to when roads were given new safety measures but with no additional funding to allow for them.

But overall, I feel it is opposition based upon teachers no longer being taken seriously on issues of education policy and just being bought off to fulfil government policies that are ill thought out. But that's just my opinion.
So more work for the same amount of money? When they are already not being paid enough?

Yeh I'd be pissed at that too...
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
120
Website
theconservativedubliner.blogspot.com
Social Partnership undermines the Dail and the democratic process. What's the voting for and what's the government for if policies are decided by arbitrary selected interest groups representing a minority of workforce, a minority of businesses and a small minority of voters?
 

stringjack

1
Moderator
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
Messages
3,892
The Conservative Dubliner said:
Social Partnership undermines the Dail and the democratic process. What's the voting for and what's the government for if policies are decided by arbitrary selected interest groups representing a minority of workforce, a minority of businesses and a small minority of voters?
:? Don't the members of the government represent a small minority of voters?
 

redneckwally

Member
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
12
Now that they are on their holidays they can pursue their favourite pastime of whinging and moaning. The poor teachers. Not satisfied with their cushy jobs they feel the need to oppose partnership. Everything will be alright in the Autumn when they are back sitting at their desks reading the papers and drinking cups of coffee and ignoring the students. That is if they can be bothered to turn up at all. The most pampered, overpaid and self-important body of 'workers' in the country. ( Can they be regarded as workers?)
 

smiffy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
1,279
Website
cedarlounge.wordpress.com
The Conservative Dubliner said:
Social Partnership undermines the Dail and the democratic process. What's the voting for and what's the government for if policies are decided by arbitrary selected interest groups representing a minority of workforce, a minority of businesses and a small minority of voters?
If you don't like it, vote for a party that opposes Social Partnership. But given that the agreement of a new Programme was part of the 2002 Programme for Government, it's a bit daft to claim that this undermines the Dáil and the democratic process unless you similarly argue that every decision this Government takes is equally undemocratic.
 

smiffy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
1,279
Website
cedarlounge.wordpress.com
The Conservative Dubliner said:
So if I sit down and make a deal with Bertie over a pint, that's okay cause he's a member of the government and therefore our deal is democraticaly legitimate and hence applicable to all of you? Cool. 8)
If Bertie Ahen ran for election on the basis that he would do a deal with you, and won a mandate for that course of action, yes.
 

jjcarroll

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Messages
314
Website
www.semper-idem.eu
It is interesting that in much of the coverage that has followed the deal, the main issue has been over whether it is a good or bad deal for the trade unions, with no real coverage as to whether it represents good or bad value for the workers.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
120
Website
theconservativedubliner.blogspot.com
jjcarroll said:
It is interesting that in much of the coverage that has followed the deal, the main issue has been over whether it is a good or bad deal for the trade unions, with no real coverage as to whether it represents good or bad value for the workers.
It's good fir the public sector which is mostly represented by the unions. That is why the public sector has got 20% higher incomes.
 

smiffy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
1,279
Website
cedarlounge.wordpress.com
The Conservative Dubliner said:
smiffy said:
If Bertie Ahen ran for election on the basis that he would do a deal with you, and won a mandate for that course of action, yes.
Hitler ran for election on the platform of exterminating Jews.
Did he? Which part of the manifesto was that?

Also, what's your point? It's really not a difficult concept: if a politician runs for election on the basis that they will do something and, following their election, they do it, it's hard to see how you can argue that it isn't democratic, unless you believe that the electoral system itself is inherently undemocratic.

Maybe we can just take it (via Godwin's Law) that you've conceded the argument.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
120
Website
theconservativedubliner.blogspot.com
smiffy said:
Also, what's your point?
The point is that if you win the election by promissing you'll do something outside of democratic or legal processes and then go on and do it, it doesn't make it right, legitimate or democratic.


smiffy said:
Maybe we can just take it (via Godwin's Law) that you've conceded the argument.
Tsss.
 
Top