ULA - The alternative left showing the first fractures?

Goban Saor

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LOL is that why there are splits in FG and FF parties then ?

The left are gaining all the time and the right have been exposed for what they are
FG are intellectual centrists. FF are populist centrists. There is no Irish right. National Forum is the closest to an Irish right but they arent even running candidates and still are very left leaning.
 


Kill Bill

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Trying to get this straight. SWP is not affiliated to ULA, but PBPA is?

Is SWP not affiliated to PBPA? If so, they are happy to be indirectly affiliated to ULA, but are opposed to being direclty affiliated.

It's all very confusing!

Those Trots. You couldn't be up to them.
PBPA is slightly broader than just the SWP though they have huge control over it. 4 of the 5 PBPA councillors are members of the SWP - Joan Collins being the exception.

The SWP have in effect dissolved themselves into the PBPA - they don't stand in elections as the SWP - only as PBPA - so the SWP are not formal affiliates but they are through the PBPA - still confused?:lol:
 

making waves

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cheers Bill informative post.
It's not actually - Bill does not understand the purpose of the United Left Alliance or the nature of its potential.

DE - both your opening post and most of the thread are nothing more than an attempt at trolling.

From what I belive the ULA is an alliance - it is not a homogenous organisation. It is a number of groups who have come together to provide a primarily electoral alternative to the left of Labour and Sinn Fein.
Correct

Obviously there are differences politically and tactially. The SWP/PBPA are quite soft on Labour particularly Boyd Barrett who is hoping Gilmore's transfers will get him in to the Dail The other groups in the alliance would be harder on Labour.
I can't speak for the SWP but their position on the LP appears to be fluid depending on the circumstances (the best I can find on their webstie is as follows -the Labour leadership is wedded to the management of capitalism and will enter coalition with the right to manage it. But while the leadership is wedded to capitalism, reformist parties can at various time use left rhetoric to shore up their support base among workers. Or to put it differently, workers can at certain points try to express their class aspirations through Labour – even if that party will inevitably betray them). This appears catagorical so their association with LY in the RTW campaign could be regarded as a little puzzling. The non-SWP people in PBP would have a view of the LP similar to the Socialist Party and the TWUAG

Right to Work is an SWP front. The SP are not affiliated hence they are generally precluded form speaking. I don't think the separate protest were anything to do with Labour speaking - the SP would have no in put into the RTW protest.
The protest outside the Dail last night was not a United Left Alliance protest - the ULA publicised the protest but it was a general protest for any and all organisations that wanted to participate including the 1% network, Shell to Sea, SF, RTW etc. There was no set list of speakers or no specific route set out for those marching to the Dail etc.

I don't think the different protests last night illustarte fractures but obviously fractures will emerge in the future. There are signifcant political differences between the SP and the SWP which will not go away and as they are the decisive components in the ULA then differences are inevitabe.
On what basis do you suggest that 'fractures' will emerge? There are political differences between the Socialist Party and PBP, there are political differences between the Socialist Party and the TWUAG and there are political differences between the PBP and TWUAG. All three groups have agreed to work together as part of an electoral alliance for the upcoming election. No one is getting married or planning a divorce. If the United Left Alliance is to have a continued existance after the election then discussions will have to take place on the structures, policies, programme and organisation etc. Irrespective of that the key to the success of the United Left Alliance is not the political agreements or disagreements between the Socialist Party and the SWP but the necessity to draw wide layers of working class adults and youth into its ranks. If it was simply to continue as the Socialist Party, the SWP and the TWUAG then it would have no future and limited reasons to continue.

I thought it was unreal to have Labour speaking at the protest given their commitment to cuts and incredibly their absolute insistence that they will reverse none of the cuts.
I would suggest that given that Gilmore and Burton were inside the Dail supporting the IMF austerity demands and LY were outside protesting - a more suitable title and content for this thread would be 'The Labour Party shows fractures over the budget'.

The SWP have in effect dissolved themselves into the PBPA
No they have not - the SWP's sister group in Germany did dissolve into Die Linke - but the SWP in Ireland are very much alive and kicking.

Sinn Fein consider themsleves to be democratic socialists
Depends on which SF rep you talk to.
 

Kill Bill

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It's not actually - Bill does not understand the purpose of the United Left Alliance or the nature of its potential.

DE - both your opening post and most of the thread are nothing more than an attempt at trolling.


Correct


I can't speak for the SWP but their position on the LP appears to be fluid depending on the circumstances (the best I can find on their webstie is as follows -the Labour leadership is wedded to the management of capitalism and will enter coalition with the right to manage it. But while the leadership is wedded to capitalism, reformist parties can at various time use left rhetoric to shore up their support base among workers. Or to put it differently, workers can at certain points try to express their class aspirations through Labour – even if that party will inevitably betray them). This appears catagorical so their association with LY in the RTW campaign could be regarded as a little puzzling. The non-SWP people in PBP would have a view of the LP similar to the Socialist Party and the TWUAG


The protest outside the Dail last night was not a United Left Alliance protest - the ULA publicised the protest but it was a general protest for any and all organisations that wanted to participate including the 1% network, Shell to Sea, SF, RTW etc. There was no set list of speakers or no specific route set out for those marching to the Dail etc.


On what basis do you suggest that 'fractures' will emerge? There are political differences between the Socialist Party and PBP, there are political differences between the Socialist Party and the TWUAG and there are political differences between the PBP and TWUAG. All three groups have agreed to work together as part of an electoral alliance for the upcoming election. No one is getting married or planning a divorce. If the United Left Alliance is to have a continued existance after the election then discussions will have to take place on the structures, policies, programme and organisation etc. Irrespective of that the key to the success of the United Left Alliance is not the political agreements or disagreements between the Socialist Party and the SWP but the necessity to draw wide layers of working class adults and youth into its ranks. If it was simply to continue as the Socialist Party, the SWP and the TWUAG then it would have no future and limited reasons to continue.


I would suggest that given that Gilmore and Burton were inside the Dail supporting the IMF austerity demands and LY were outside protesting - a more suitable title and content for this thread would be 'The Labour Party shows fractures over the budget'.


No they have not - the SWP's sister group in Germany did dissolve into Die Linke - but the SWP in Ireland are very much alive and kicking.


Depends on which SF rep you talk to.
Making waves - you ended up agreeing with most of what I said!!

Two issues - I said "in effect" the SWP have dissolved themselves into the PBPA - that is the case. The vast majority of their work is done under the PBPA banner - 4/5 councillors are SWP members - how often have you heard RBB referred to as SWP member?

Secondly - unless the SWP have completely changed their spots and how they work in alliances and campaigns (which I doubt) how on earth would fractures not emerge - clearly if the ULA grows they will find it harder.
 

making waves

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Making waves - you ended up agreeing with most of what I said!!
The point I was making was not what you said - but why you said it. You do not appear to understand the nature and purpose of the United Left Alliance and the prospects and potential for it after the election.

Two issues - I said "in effect" the SWP have dissolved themselves into the PBPA - that is the case. The vast majority of their work is done under the PBPA banner - 4/5 councillors are SWP members - how often have you heard RBB referred to as SWP member?
I disagree - the SWP run a number of 'front' organisations - the PBP is just one of them.

Secondly - unless the SWP have completely changed their spots and how they work in alliances and campaigns (which I doubt) how on earth would fractures not emerge - clearly if the ULA grows they will find it harder.
Many people have had issues with how the SWP work in alliances with other groups and individuals. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of the United Left Alliance. As I stated above, if the ULA is to continue after the election it will be doing so on the basis that it has developed as a pole of attraction for workers and youth wanting to fight against the austerity programme of the right. It will not continue simply as an alliance between the Socialist Party and PBP.

I do believe that increasing numbers of members and supporters for the ULA post-election would ahve the effect of tempering the attitude of some of those who initially got involved. In effect if it proved to be necessary the power of numbers will negate the actions of individual components. It is possible that if the ULA grew significantly after the election (and I am talking about new members in the four figures) that the SWP might decide to dissolve into the ULA (as they have done with Die Linke in Germany). I do not think that would happen in the short term. As an aside - the Socialist Party would not remotely consider any such move.
 

Sync

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I have seen a report that the at the Budget protest yesterday that the ULA held a separate protest to the Socialist Workers Party-Right To Work protest because the SWP/RTW allowed Labour Youth involvement.
What report, written and published by whom?
 
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Popular Fronts and United Fronts

Has anyone on this post read any of Trotsky's writings on the United Front?

The Irish economic catastrophe cannot be fixed. It's a part of the world breakdown of the capitalist order. Any so-called socialist party which leads people to believe protest, or people power, can pressure the ruling class into backtracking is creating a mortally dangerous illusion.

The capitalists mean business. Boyd-Barret and Higgins et al are hiding this from those now coming into conflict with the system. The Dail, National soloutions, the Trade Union apparatus are all tools through which the ruling class is drawing the working people into a trap.

That SWP and SP can have such spats indicates the unprincipled and petty nature of their 'socialism'.

Take this example of the unions' role in Greece and the cover they were given by the 'Left'.
Greece: Fake left lines up behind union sabotage of anti-austerity struggle
 

Goban Saor

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Republic of Ireland Political Compass

Labour might scrape centrism but Fianna Fail and Fine Gsel are certanily right-wing(hence why they both wish to privatise public services)
Not a great source. Both FF and FG only want to privatise a few non-essential assets and only to balence the budget. Neither want to do it because they think privatisation is the best option.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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First off, where did you hear the report? Second, RTW and the SWP aren't affiliates to the ULA: the PBPA, SP, and TUWAG are the 3 affiliated groups who are members of the ULA.
Who are TUWAG? I have genuinely never heard of them?
 
R

RepublicanSocialist1798

Interesting side bar. A SP member was selling "Joe Higgins socialist party paper" can the paper not stand on it's own? Its definitely a case of the "joe show" I've always believed that the SP will wither when he retires. It's a small northside of dublin party( again built up by Joe) with small group of individuals in a smattering of areas. I've great respect for Claire daly, a great worker. But Joe, Ruth copponger and Matt waine lost all my respect when they opposed a drug treatment centre on coolmine.
Why did they vote against that?
 

citizen pat

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Are Sinn Fein a leftwing party

When weren't they?
When they were a right wing nationalist party-not that long ago.

Sinn Fein ruptured in the late 1960s into two groups, The Sinn Fein lead by Adams today was not a leftist party then
I originally asked the question to see what other peoples views are
The recent election commentary and many in SF see themselves as of the left
fine I respect their views but
I just dont see how they arrived at that position and they are in a cost cutting administation in NI-akin to the FF/FG type of government we see here.
 


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