Ulsters WW2 fight


rem81

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It's time to take a new look at the historical efforts from "Northern Ireland" in the second world war. The Loyalists of Ulster claim Britain is the country they love and are loyal to. They love to glorify the sacrifice of the men at the Somme and WW1. But it appears in the second world war the Ulstermen had learnt from their earlier experience and were therefore very reluctant to enlist.

In 1947, Nationalist author Denis Ireland wrote of the spectacle of 'streets, cinemas and cafes packed with "loyal Ulstermen", loyally staying at home.'


Queens University Belfast speaks of "Conversely, attention was also drawn to the perceived contradiction between the Unionist rhetoric of supreme loyalty to crown and empire and the much lower than expected numbers of Unionist volunteers for the war effort. "

and notes "Compared to other parts of the United Kingdom, however, Northern Ireland's industries were considered somewhat under productive."

in Belfast, an important poet and man from England said there were "thousands of Loyal Ulstermen, all loyally staying at home" - John Betjemen

Its also interesting that more men from the free state joined up than BritainS NI.

Northern Ireland only had a single man win a Victoria Cross, and he was from a Catholic family and Protestants later discriminated against him for being a different religion.
James Joseph Magennis was a brave man from the green slums of Belfast.
other
Irishmen from their land known as the freestate earned more Victoria crosses as well as did the descendents of Irish immigrants across the empire.


The Orange Order even banned parades during the war because the sight of thousands of young men walking about instead of fighting was demoralising.

Note that many of the recruits who did fight from Northern Ireland were not loyalists. Is this all a good look and evaluation/refutation of the traditional view by unionists that they are valliant defenders of Britannia?
 

between the bridges

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In 1947, Nationalist author Denis Ireland wrote of the spectacle of 'streets, cinemas and cafes packed with "loyal Ulstermen", loyally staying at home.'
Somewan should have told Denis that the war ended in 1945....
 

Golah veNekhar

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I think the aesthetic aspects of the Third Reich appealed to the Ulster Scot imagination (just look at Belfast City Hall), that and conspiracy theories about the battle of Somme, kept people at home.
 

between the bridges

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I think the aesthetic aspects of the Third Reich appealed to the Ulster Scot imagination (just look at Belfast City Hall), that and conspiracy theories about the battle of Somme, kept people at home.
Hi Bill so ye reckon a building built in 1898 was a nod to the 1933-45 turd Reich?...
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Hi Bill so ye reckon a building built in 1898 was a nod to the 1933-45 turd Reich?...
About only bit of sense in this thread.

I find it difficult to conceive anything more 'of its time' than the City Hall. It's straight up-and-down English municipal Edwardian neo-Baroque. Compare Stockport, Woolwich and the Deptford Carnegie Library (all from the same atelier). Albert Speer and his mates would have detested it.

Oh, and it was built on the profits of the Belfast municipal gas works.

It took me a while, but I've become a small-time fan of all that 'every picture tells a story' glazing. Even better than the City Hall (because it's more compact) is the glass at Derry's Guildhall. Yes, I know the Guildhall has suffered its vicissitudes, but it's essentially a Church-of-Ireland tabernacle writ large (the original architect's day-job was Diocesan Architect, and a local man).

What a proper thread on the war-time Six Counties should be about is the total and serial bone-headed incompetence of Craig, Andrews and Brooke. And I'd find that very discussable.
 

Strawberry

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About only bit of sense in this thread.

I find it difficult to conceive anything more 'of its time' than the City Hall. It's straight up-and-down English municipal Edwardian neo-Baroque. Compare Stockport, Woolwich and the Deptford Carnegie Library (all from the same atelier). Albert Speer and his mates would have detested it.

Oh, and it was built on the profits of the Belfast municipal gas works.

It took me a while, but I've become a small-time fan of all that 'every picture tells a story' glazing. Even better than the City Hall (because it's more compact) is the glass at Derry's Guildhall. Yes, I know the Guildhall has suffered its vicissitudes, but it's essentially a Church-of-Ireland tabernacle writ large (the original architect's day-job was Diocesan Architect, and a local man).

What a proper thread on the war-time Six Counties should be about is the total and serial bone-headed incompetence of Craig, Andrews and Brooke. And I'd find that very discussable.
You're usually the best poster on these things, Malcolm, maybe you could make a sensible post on the subject and we can all discuss it. I'm afraid I didn't look at the OP too closely before I put it in the History forum, it really belongs in the Zoo but if you can redeem it with some actual history I'll leave it here.
 

Levellers

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Dublin was full of the sons of the unionist elite during the Emergency.
 

rem81

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I think the aesthetic aspects of the Third Reich appealed to the Ulster Scot imagination (just look at Belfast City Hall), that and conspiracy theories about the battle of Somme, kept people at home.
What conspiracies
 

Estragon

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About only bit of sense in this thread.

I find it difficult to conceive anything more 'of its time' than the City Hall. It's straight up-and-down English municipal Edwardian neo-Baroque. Compare Stockport, Woolwich and the Deptford Carnegie Library (all from the same atelier). Albert Speer and his mates would have detested it.

Oh, and it was built on the profits of the Belfast municipal gas works.

It took me a while, but I've become a small-time fan of all that 'every picture tells a story' glazing. Even better than the City Hall (because it's more compact) is the glass at Derry's Guildhall. Yes, I know the Guildhall has suffered its vicissitudes, but it's essentially a Church-of-Ireland tabernacle writ large (the original architect's day-job was Diocesan Architect, and a local man).

What a proper thread on the war-time Six Counties should be about is the total and serial bone-headed incompetence of Craig, Andrews and Brooke. And I'd find that very discussable.
Basil Brooke was an impressively bovine. man.

He's a strange oddity. You think surely they're over-egging his bigotry, that it was a bit of a put on because he was looking to protect big house unionist economic interests. But you do the reading and discover you're wrong. He was just a massive, massive bigot.
 

Golah veNekhar

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What conspiracies
That the 36 th had been sent on a suicide mission to wipe out people who potentially would have been a major cause of pain and problems for His Majesty's Government once they got back home.
 

Oliver Cromwell McIvor

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I think the OP has been done to death at this stage. There's plenty more Nats and Mexicans could've done too FFS.
 

RasherHash

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It's time to take a new look at the historical efforts from "Northern Ireland" in the second world war. The Loyalists of Ulster claim Britain is the country they love and are loyal to. They love to glorify the sacrifice of the men at the Somme and WW1. But it appears in the second world war the Ulstermen had learnt from their earlier experience and were therefore very reluctant to enlist.

In 1947, Nationalist author Denis Ireland wrote of the spectacle of 'streets, cinemas and cafes packed with "loyal Ulstermen", loyally staying at home.'


Queens University Belfast speaks of "Conversely, attention was also drawn to the perceived contradiction between the Unionist rhetoric of supreme loyalty to crown and empire and the much lower than expected numbers of Unionist volunteers for the war effort. "

and notes "Compared to other parts of the United Kingdom, however, Northern Ireland's industries were considered somewhat under productive."

in Belfast, an important poet and man from England said there were "thousands of Loyal Ulstermen, all loyally staying at home" - John Betjemen

Its also interesting that more men from the free state joined up than BritainS NI.

Northern Ireland only had a single man win a Victoria Cross, and he was from a Catholic family and Protestants later discriminated against him for being a different religion.
James Joseph Magennis was a brave man from the green slums of Belfast.
other
Irishmen from their land known as the freestate earned more Victoria crosses as well as did the descendents of Irish immigrants across the empire.


The Orange Order even banned parades during the war because the sight of thousands of young men walking about instead of fighting was demoralising.

Note that many of the recruits who did fight from Northern Ireland were not loyalists. Is this all a good look and evaluation/refutation of the traditional view by unionists that they are valliant defenders of Britannia?
Good op.

The unionists are not really British and aren't in the least bit interested in becoming so. They are Irish, but they are Irish who've found an interesting angle in order to enrich themselves (primarily those at the top of course, the sheeple on the Shankill etc are like sheeple everywhere, to thick to see they are being had).

In fairness to them it has to be said, they played the brits for idiots during WW2 and managed not to get too many of their young men butchered for nothing.

They should be admired for that :smile:
 

Talk Back

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It's time to take a new look at the historical efforts from "Northern Ireland" in the second world war. The Loyalists of Ulster claim Britain is the country they love and are loyal to. They love to glorify the sacrifice of the men at the Somme and WW1. But it appears in the second world war the Ulstermen had learnt from their earlier experience and were therefore very reluctant to enlist.

In 1947, Nationalist author Denis Ireland wrote of the spectacle of 'streets, cinemas and cafes packed with "loyal Ulstermen", loyally staying at home.'


Queens University Belfast speaks of "Conversely, attention was also drawn to the perceived contradiction between the Unionist rhetoric of supreme loyalty to crown and empire and the much lower than expected numbers of Unionist volunteers for the war effort. "

and notes "Compared to other parts of the United Kingdom, however, Northern Ireland's industries were considered somewhat under productive."

in Belfast, an important poet and man from England said there were "thousands of Loyal Ulstermen, all loyally staying at home" - John Betjemen

Its also interesting that more men from the free state joined up than BritainS NI.

Northern Ireland only had a single man win a Victoria Cross, and he was from a Catholic family and Protestants later discriminated against him for being a different religion.
James Joseph Magennis was a brave man from the green slums of Belfast.
other
Irishmen from their land known as the freestate earned more Victoria crosses as well as did the descendents of Irish immigrants across the empire.


The Orange Order even banned parades during the war because the sight of thousands of young men walking about instead of fighting was demoralising.

Note that many of the recruits who did fight from Northern Ireland were not loyalists. Is this all a good look and evaluation/refutation of the traditional view by unionists that they are valliant defenders of Britannia?
Why are you equating 9 country Ulster with the abomination that is the occupied 6 north-eastern counties of Ireland???
 

Talk Back

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Good op.

The unionists are not really British and aren't in the least bit interested in becoming so. They are Irish, but they are Irish who've found an interesting angle in order to enrich themselves (primarily those at the top of course, the sheeple on the Shankill etc are like sheeple everywhere, to thick to see they are being had).

In fairness to them it has to be said, they played the brits for idiots during WW2 and managed not to get too many of their young men butchered for nothing.

They should be admired for that :smile:
They are not Irish either. They are persona non grata everywhere - nobody wants the troublemakers.

Unionists who are not Irish citizens, or who do not obey the democratic will of the majority of the people of Ireland are foreigners - still holding Ireland back and causing all the trouble in Ireland - the same as they always have since they first stole the Irish land from Irish people that they squat on to this day.
 

PO'Neill

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Somewan should have told Denis that the war ended in 1945....
As the saying goes, unionists didn't join the British army in WW2 because their feet were too sore from all the orange marches !!!
 
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