UN: Ulster-Scots language doesn't exist

Leftfemme22

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
216
I love these threads, they are hilarious.
 


Chrisco

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
3,822
Is this island Britain or Ireland?

(I like this game.)
Avoiding answering the question, because you know it undermines your argument.

Once again, this is objectively Ireland. But that doesn't mean to say that everyone who lives here is Irish.
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
Avoiding answering the question, because you know it undermines your argument.

Once again, this is objectively Ireland. But that doesn't mean to say that everyone who lives here is Irish.
Sure it does. It doesn't mean they can't have a cultural affinity with anywhere else, whether it be Britain, Poland, Nigeria or somewhere else again.
But even Big Ian acknowledges that he's Irish, just of a different culture to most of his fellow Irish. To suggest anything else is ridiculous.
 

Chrisco

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
3,822
Sure it does. It doesn't mean they can't have a cultural affinity with anywhere else, whether it be Britain, Poland, Nigeria or somewhere else again.
But even Big Ian acknowledges that he's Irish, just of a different culture to most of his fellow Irish. To suggest anything else is ridiculous.
Point taken, but it doesn't mean they are not British also, (in the sense that it is the adjective pertaining to the United Kingdom).
 

Leftfemme22

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
216
Avoiding answering the question, because you know it undermines your argument.

Once again, this is objectively Ireland. But that doesn't mean to say that everyone who lives here is Irish.
Of course not, but if you're born and raised here you are, end of story.

You can opt out all you like, feel Japanese/Spanish/Ukranian/British or consider yourself such but you cant say you're not Irish. Everyone would either laugh at you or ignore you.
 

Leftfemme22

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
216
Point taken, but it doesn't mean they are not British also, (in the sense that it is the adjective pertaining to the United Kingdom).

I'm British, I see no affinity with Unionism or anything it represents, it is a totally alien culture to me and a consequence of Empire and to most people I know a source of embarressment.
 

Cathar

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
352
To go back to Yola I have to disagree with the Wiki definition.
The Normans who came to Ireland didnt speak english but Norman French. Middle English would have arrived later. It was much later before the Normans adopted English as a language as most of the principle figures at that time still held considerable land holdings in France. In other parts of Ireland the Norman lords went directly fromspeaking French to Irish as their predominant language.

And yes Scots or Ulster scots is a dialect. It is beautiful to read as anyone who has ever read "the Man with No Name" 1798 poem will verify.
 

LeftOfCentre

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
89
This doesn't seem to be a point about language, but about politics.

Whether it's used as a political statement or not is unrelated to the quality/authenticity of the language itself. Although, if they do make mistakes, then that's of course a problem.

I know some people like to take every opportunity possible to hit SF, but it's probably best if you keep it on topic.

My understanding of Ulster Scots was that people thought they were speaking English until someone turned around and realised they could get a shedload if they claimed it was a language. If the EU can't find a single native speaker, it seems things haven't changed.
On the contrary .... My point is that no one would have even applied for recognition of ulster scott as a language ,,,, if it were not for SF (&Co's) miss use of the language... so my point is utterly on topic.

As for making a political point ,,, just look up at your address bar.

as for having a 'dig' as SF .... I have consistently praised the great consultancy work done by the party 7 on most issues have a degree of respect for them.
 

Chrisco

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
3,822
FYI: possibly the only written example of Yola.

Address to Lord Lieutenant in 1836

Congratulatory address in the dialect of Forth and Bargy, presented to Earl Musgrave, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland on his visit to Wexford in 1836 taken from the "Wexford Independent" newspaper of 15 February 1860. The paper’s editor Mr Edmund Hore writes:

"The most remarkable fact, in reality, in connexion with the address is this. In all probability it was the first time regal or vice-regal ears were required to listen to word of such a dialect; an it is even still more probable that a like event will never happen again; for if the use of this old tongue dies out as fast for the next five-and-twenty years as it has for the same bygone period, it will be utterly extinct and forgotten before the present century shall have closed.

"In order for a person not acquainted with the pronunciation of the dialect to form anything like an idea of it, it is first necessary to speak slowly, and remember that the letter a has invariably the same sound, like "a" in “father”. Double "ee" sounds like "e" in “me”, and most words of two syllables the long accent is placed on the last. To follow the English pronunciation completely deprives the dialect of its peculiarities."

To’s Excellencie Constantine Harrie Phipps, y’ Earle Mulgrave, Lord Lieutenant-General and General Governor of Ireland. Ye soumissive Spakeen o’ouz Dwelleres o’ Baronie Forthe, Weisforthe.

MAI’T BE PLESANT TO TH’ECCELLENCIE, - Wee, Vassalès o’ ‘His Most Gracious majesty’, Wilyame ee Vourthe, an, az wee verilie chote, na coshe and loyale dwellerès na Baronie Forthe, crave na dicke luckie acte t’uck neicher th’ Eccellencie, an na plaine grabe o’ oure yola talke, wi vengem o’ core t’gie ours zense o’ y gradès whilke be ee-dighte wi yer name; and whilke we canna zei, albeit o’ ‘Governere’, ‘Statesman’, an alike. Yn ercha and aul o’ while yt beeth wi gleezom o’ core th’ oure eyen dwytheth apan ye Vigere o’dicke Zouvereine, Wilyame ee Vourthe, unnere fose fatherlie zwae oure diaez be ee-spant, az avare ye trad dicke londe yer name waz ee-kent var "ee vriene o’ livertie", an "He fo brake ye neckares o’ zlaves". Mang ourzels – var wee dwytheth an Irelonde az ure genreale haim – y’ast, bie ractzom o’honde, ee-delt t’ouz ye laas ee-mate var ercha vassale, ne’er dwythen na dicke waie nar dicka. Wee dwyth ye ane fose dais be gien var ee guidevare o’ye londe ye zwae, - t’avance pace an livertie, an, wi’oute vlynch, ee garde o’ generale reights an poplare vartue. Ye pace – yea, we mai zei, ye vast pace whilke bee ee-stent owr ye londe zince th’ast ee-cam, proo’th, y’at wee alane needeth ye giftes o’generale rights, az be displayth bie ee factes o’thie goveremente. Ye state na dicke daie o’ye londe, na whilke be nar fash nar moile, albeit ‘constitutional agitation’, ye wake o’hopes ee-blighte, stampe na yer zwae be rare an lightzom. Yer name var zetch avancet avare ye, e’en a dicke var hye, arent whilke ye brine o’zea an dye craggès o’noghanes cazed nae balke. Na oure gladès ana whilke we dellt wi’ mattoke, an zing t’oure caulès wi plou, wee hert ee zough o’ye colure o’ pace na name o’ "Mulgrave". Wi Irishmen ower generale houpes be ee-boud – az Irishmen, an az dwellerès na cosh an loyale o’ Baronie Forthe, w’oul daie an ercha daie, our meines an oure gurles, praie var long an happie zins, shorne o’lournagh an ee-vilt wi benisons, an yersel and oure gude Zovereine, till ee zin o’oure daies be var aye be ee-go to’glade.
And yes Scots or Ulster scots is a dialect.
UNESCO, and a significant number of lingusiticians, would disagree.
 

forest

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
3,358
Someone from Hamburg and someone from Zurich will not understand each other if they speak their own versions of German. They're in different countries too. Would you say that one of them isn't speaking German?
I girl I knew from Germany referred to Austrian as a separate language once I tried to correct her but she was having none of it
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
54
Never mind Ulster Scots, what the hell is Yola?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yola is an extinct West Germanic language formerly spoken in Ireland. A branch of Middle English, it evolved separately among the English (known as the Old English) who followed the Norman barons Strongbow and Robert Fitzstephen to eastern Ireland in 1169.

Mad!
Fingallian is a variant of Yola spoken in North Dublin. Yola was an actual language that was spoken in South Wexford until the 19th century in the Barony of Forth & Bargy. What about a few quid for this culture from the
govt?
 

femmefatale

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
3,795
The UNESCO world atlas of endangered languages makes no mention of Ulster-Scots:
http://cms01.unesco.org/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/HQ/CLT/CLT/pdf/UNESCO-EndangeredLanguages-WorldMap-20090218.pdf
According to the atlas, Irish is mildly endangered, and Manx Gaelic and Cornish are both officially extinct.
But despite the utter rarity of Ulster-Scots speakers (an EU delegation failed to find any) no comment is made by UNESCO on how endangered Ulster-Scots is - because they do not recognise it as a language.
Further proof, if proof were needed at this point, that Ulster-Scots is a scam created by perverts, bigots and chancers to extort money from the British and Irish governments.
Thanks for posting this. I don't know that I'd call Ulster-Scots proponents 'perverts', but it is clear to anyone who is the least bit perceptive that so-called 'Ulster-Scots' is an invention contrived and promoted to antagonise the Irish language lobby and derail efforts to promote Irish in the north.
 
Last edited:

Glennshane

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
495
-the pathetic misuse of Irish purely as a sectarian based political statement
Sermons against sectarianism are very provocative when preached by people who have had little opportunity to practise their non-sectarianism. Judge not and ye shall not be judged.
 

slx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
883
Thanks for posting this. I don't know that I'd call Ulster-Scots proponents 'perverts', but it is clear to anyone who is the least bit perceptive that so-called 'Ulster-Scots' is promoted to antagonise the Irish language lobby and derail efforts to promote Irish in the north.
Far from it, I know people involved in the Ulster-Scots movement and they're actually quite heavily involved with the Irish language movement too. There's a lot of similarity between the two communities i.e. both have been very badly marginalised by an establishment.

Ulster Scots was almost wiped out by the Northern Irish school system, the establishment tried to erase it as a colloquial, incorrect form of speech.

If anything, the Ulster-Scots movement fully understand where the Irish language movement is coming from and there's a lot of mutual support.

It's most certainly not undermining anything.

Ulster Scots is spoken in parts of East Donegal too, and there's a long and rich history of music, folk tales, poetry etc. It's just part of the fabric of what makes up the linguistic heritage of Ulster. I really see absolutely no problem with promoting it along side Gaeilge.

They're both very much part of how people speak in rural Ulster.






How's that for a bit of multilingualism :)
 
Last edited:

5intheface

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
317
I don't speak Irish and am not competent to put forward the many examples of incorrect Irish grammar used by 'republicans'. But I have been assured by many fluent in the language that there are several examples of so called republicans that insist on publicly using 'pigeon' Irish.
The word is 'pidgin'. Not being a pedant, just letting you know. :)
 

5intheface

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
317
On the subject of Ulster-Scots, not that it requires any further debunking from me, the most infuriating part is the insane cobbling of dispirit words together into something that is an insult to the words themselves.

For example, just what is their word for 'back'? In Cullybackey they say 'beck' and in Ballymoney they say 'bock'. Who decides which it is, Nelson McCausland? In their monthly, 'Ulster Scot' which came free with The Newsletter, it was so easy to pick holes in their consistency with four versions of the word 'the', depending I suppose on who was writing it.

There are loads of words and phrases which are undoubtedly of Scots heritage but they are not used in all parts of the north which 'The Boord' claim as theirs. I would argue that apart from not being a language, it isn't even a dialect, it's dozens of dialects which differ and divide as they head west and south. How it ever came to be on signposts and official doccumentation is the biggest mystery. I'm surrounded by this joke and I know it as well as any 'boadie fae tha toon' and I can assure you all that there is no human on the planet who would/could read an article in Ulster-Scots and recognise it as the way they speak.

And why is every article about either 'The Ulster Fry' or Harry Ferguson?
 
Last edited:

caulfield

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
1,421


lol sorry, couldn't resist.

Brilliant. For Cod and Ulster!
It says a lot about the Ulster-Scots that we have 4 different words for sausage!
 

femmefatale

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
3,795
Far from it, I know people involved in the Ulster-Scots movement and they're actually quite heavily involved with the Irish language movement too. There's a lot of similarity between the two communities i.e. both have been very badly marginalised by an establishment.

Ulster Scots was almost wiped out by the Northern Irish school system, the establishment tried to erase it as a colloquial, incorrect form of speech.

If anything, the Ulster-Scots movement fully understand where the Irish language movement is coming from and there's a lot of mutual support.

It's most certainly not undermining anything.

Ulster Scots is spoken in parts of East Donegal too, and there's a long and rich history of music, folk tales, poetry etc. It's just part of the fabric of what makes up the linguistic heritage of Ulster. I really see absolutely no problem with promoting it along side Gaeilge.

They're both very much part of how people speak in rural Ulster.






How's that for a bit of multilingualism :)
I'm sorry, perhaps I'm very ignorant, but I'm afraid it just looks and sounds like a bastardized form of English.

There is also absolutely no doubt that some politicians talk it up in an attempt to suggest that it is equivalent to Irish (insulting Irish in the process) and to dissuade people from giving (financial) backing to Irish language promotion (which of course looks less welcome, less practical, and more costly if all Irish language promotion and recognition has to be accompanied by an equal amount of 'Ulster Scots' recognition and promotion!). Some Unionists politicians are using the whole thing for very cynical purposes. I for one don't buy it!
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
Thanks for posting this. I don't know that I'd call Ulster-Scots proponents 'perverts', but it is clear to anyone who is the least bit perceptive that so-called 'Ulster-Scots' is an invention contrived and promoted to antagonise the Irish language lobby and derail efforts to promote Irish in the north.
Google 'Sam Mallon' to understand why I refer to perversion among the originators of the Ulster-Scots language movement.
Man wanted to have sex with a 14 year old. He was in his sixties at the time. Investigators found over 30 disks of child porn at the Ulster Scots Agency offices after his arrest.
He was deemed 'not safe to have around children.' He has been released from prison in America and is now thought to be back living in the North.
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2003/apr/27/not-safe-to-have-around-children/
 
Last edited:


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top