Unionism must have a veto on Irish reunification - Seamus Mallon

Ireniall

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Unfortunately to make all these plans you need cooperation. What seems to be happening is a blank denial of reality by unionist politicians with each being afraid of the Lundy tag. Therefore no-one will talk about the elephant in the room. So the nationalists make plans and then get accused of exclusion. When unionists are invited to participate they refuse as if by acknowledging the elephant it will become real.
There are ways around that. It's not that it is a mystery to us what they will want anyway but negotiations have unique ability to extract the maximum from each party in a way that no other processes can. One way to probe this would be to have an exploratory, non binding referendum first(no-before your next wisecrack-not like f**king Brexit)-a real non-binding referendum to clear the air and let the coming united Ireland show its inevitable face if that is what the poll returns. Then we can talk about what actually happens.
 


Talk Back

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There are ways around that. It's not that it is a mystery to us what they will want anyway but negotiations have unique ability to extract the maximum from each party in a way that no other processes can. One way to probe this would be to have an exploratory, non binding referendum first(no-before your next wisecrack-not like f**king Brexit)-a real non-binding referendum to clear the air and let the coming united Ireland show its inevitable face if that is what the poll returns. Then we can talk about what actually happens.
Serious whiff of Unionist desperation emanating from this one.
 

Ireniall

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There is nothing to talk about. Republicans are nowhere close to getting a majority for a UI.

Why on earth would unionists encourage republican delusions?
Do the dead enjoy your whistling as you walk by?
 

Ireniall

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Serious whiff of Unionist desperation emanating from this one.
My God -you are a twerp. A non-binding referendum will tend to maximise the united Ireland vote since it will remove the fears associated with actually taking that step and allow Nationalists of all types to vote for it thereby strengthening their position in the coming negotiations into the bargain. At the same time -assuming a majority overall or a vast majority of Catholics vote in favour of unity it will be a red card for the Union and will be impossible for Unionists to ignore. Of course, if they had any sense they would never let it get to that but sure that's another story.
 

death or glory

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My God -you are a twerp. A non-binding referendum will tend to maximise the united Ireland vote since it will remove the fears associated with actually taking that step and allow Nationalists of all types to vote for it thereby strengthening their position in the coming negotiations into the bargain. At the same time -assuming a majority overall or a vast majority of Catholics vote in favour of unity it will be a red card for the Union and will be impossible for Unionists to ignore. Of course, if they had any sense they would never let it get to that but sure that's another story.
I take it you don t know that there was a referendum on a UI in Northern Ireland before.
99% wanted to remain in the UK and still Rebs tried to terrorise us into a UI.
 

Newrybhoy

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My God -you are a twerp. A non-binding referendum will tend to maximise the united Ireland vote since it will remove the fears associated with actually taking that step and allow Nationalists of all types to vote for it thereby strengthening their position in the coming negotiations into the bargain. At the same time -assuming a majority overall or a vast majority of Catholics vote in favour of unity it will be a red card for the Union and will be impossible for Unionists to ignore. Of course, if they had any sense they would never let it get to that but sure that's another story.
What non binding referendum is this?
Sorry I hadn't seen your other post.

So now you want a free go with no downsides to test the water.

I'll do you a deal, you can have a vote in the morning,once and for all,seeing it is outside the GFA criteria.

Put up or shut up.
 
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Ireniall

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I take it you don t know that there was a referendum on a UI in Northern Ireland before.
99% wanted to remain in the UK and still Rebs tried to terrorise us into a UI.
Right. So every one and his dog including your own prime minister are all fretting over nathing is it. Just to help you past the blockage like -lets just pretend that Catholics might vote for a united Ireland-what do you think that your lot should do?
 

Ireniall

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What non binding referendum is this?
Sorry I hadn't seen your other post.

So now you want a free go with no downsides to test the water.

I'll do you a deal, you can have a vote in the morning,once and for all,seeing it is outside the GFA criteria.

Put up or shut up.
Your analysis of the situation is faulty. In the almost certain eventuality that Nationalist parties overtake Unionist ones in the Assembly and assuming they see the merits of a nonbinding referendum their calls for such would be virtually irresistible and Unionists would be presented with the choice to have a binding border poll or the kind I am proposing. Squeaky bum time you might say. Yes a binding border poll will frighten off some Protestants and Catholics but if there's still enough to win it will finally allow us to forget about the idiocy of the DUP turkeys voting for Brexit because we will have such a massive one to replace it. There is some chance that a vote on the EU withdrawal agreement as it applies to NI might provide a similar situation
 

Newrybhoy

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Your analysis of the situation is faulty. In the almost certain eventuality that Nationalist parties overtake Unionist ones in the Assembly and assuming they see the merits of a nonbinding referendum their calls for such would be virtually irresistible and Unionists would be presented with the choice to have a binding border poll or the kind I am proposing. Squeaky bum time you might say. Yes a binding border poll will frighten off some Protestants and Catholics but if there's still enough to win it will finally allow us to forget about the idiocy of the DUP turkeys voting for Brexit because we will have such a massive one to replace it. There is some chance that a vote on the EU withdrawal agreement as it applies to NI might provide a similar situation
There is no Assembly thanks to SF.

If it reconvenes, your fantasy poll will be scuppered by a Petition of Concern.
 

Ireniall

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There is no Assembly thanks to SF.

If it reconvenes, your fantasy poll will be scuppered by a Petition of Concern.
Is it your contention that a widely supported Border Poll of whatever type could be prevented by technical maneuvers in the Assembly or anywhere else? It might take a couple of years of campaigning but it would certainly happen and then Unionists would have to decide. At least you didn't mention the Secretary of State not calling a poll.
 

firefly123

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There is nothing to talk about. Republicans are nowhere close to getting a majority for a UI.

Why on earth would unionists encourage republican delusions?
May I present exhibit A your Honour.
 

firefly123

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I take it you don t know that there was a referendum on a UI in Northern Ireland before.
99% wanted to remain in the UK and still Rebs tried to terrorise us into a UI.
1973...
That's 46 years ago.
In the middle of the troubles.
Boycotted by the nationalist community.
A 98% vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

Not exactly relevant is it?
 

Newrybhoy

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Is it your contention that a widely supported Border Poll of whatever type could be prevented by technical maneuvers in the Assembly or anywhere else? It might take a couple of years of campaigning but it would certainly happen and then Unionists would have to decide. At least you didn't mention the Secretary of State not calling a poll.
The Secretary of State only has to consider calling a poll when nationalists become a majority. That's years away if at all.
 

firefly123

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The Secretary of State only has to consider calling a poll when nationalists become a majority. That's years away if at all.
So what's the harm in engaging in some discussion about what a future unified ireland might look like now. A bit of forward planning. Think of it like insurance. you may never need it but it's no harm.

Instead we have people insinuating war or some sort of retreat to the heartland.
 

death or glory

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Right. So every one and his dog including your own prime minister are all fretting over nathing is it. Just to help you past the blockage like -lets just pretend that Catholics might vote for a united Ireland-what do you think that your lot should do?
Well ok if you want me to indulge your fantasies.
The Twelfth would obviously have to beca public holiday, we would o obviously still be part of the commonwealth.
The Angelus would have to be consigned to history.
We would need guarantees that a sectarian state that decimated the peaceful protestant population would not be able to do the same.
There would need a new flag and anthem and our British culture and traditions would have to be allowed to parade in Dublin
 

Newrybhoy

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So what's the harm in engaging in some discussion about what a future unified ireland might look like now. A bit of forward planning. Think of it like insurance. you may never need it but it's no harm.

Instead we have people insinuating war or some sort of retreat to the heartland.
As I said why would we give hope to republican aspirations?
 

death or glory

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1973...
That's 46 years ago.
In the middle of the troubles.
Boycotted by the nationalist community.
A 98% vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

Not exactly relevant is it?
Why did you boycott it?

Why could Unionists not do the same?
 

Estragon

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Well I definitely don't accept all of that and I find your views about Protestants owning the good land to be chillingly sinister and unlikely to be the basis of any sort of unity. A hint of this stuff will have everyone running from the idea.
Ireniall, your problem is that the lessons of Irish history have been lost on you.

Every move towards the independence of this country from Britain has been opposed tooth and nail, without regard to the niceties by Unionists. Democracy decreed Ireland should have be given it's independence in 1918. Britain flouted that unambiguous democratic expression. When they couldn't bludgeon and murder the natives into submission, they did the next best thing and hacked the country in two.

The six counties was an abortion from the very start. The nationalists there were treated like filth. Only for World War 2 it would have been an economic basket case for much of its existence.

The most modest steps towards lifting the boot off the Fenian throat by Terence O'Neill were met by fascist venom with few precedents on this island.

There will be a unity referendum. Unionists will do what they have always done. They will oppose it with crude violence, the vast majority of it targeted at unarmed catholics. This time though, their goose is cooked. History has run out of time for them. It would be nice to think they'll say it's a fair cop, but every historical precedent tells us THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

And yet you talk about sinister nationalism?
 

firefly123

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Why did you boycott it?

Why could Unionists not do the same?

I wasn't alive at the time so I didn't boycott it. To be honest I know little of the event other than 1973 was a dark time in the north and perhaps it was a sure thing result given the demographics at the time. Not exactly the same in the near future.


Well indeed you could boycott. That would be your democratic right of course. You will still have to respect the outcome though.
 

death or glory

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Ireniall, your problem is that the lessons of Irish history have been lost on you.

Every move towards the independence of this country from Britain has been opposed tooth and nail, without regard to the niceties by Unionists. Democracy decreed Ireland should have be given it's independence in 1918. Britain flouted that unambiguous democratic expression. When they couldn't bludgeon and murder the natives into submission, they did the next best thing and hacked the country in two.

The six counties was an abortion from the very start. The nationalists there were treated like filth. Only for World War 2 it would have been an economic basket case for much of its existence.

The most modest steps towards lifting the boot off the Fenian throat by Terence O'Neill were met by fascist venom with few precedents on this island.

There will be a unity referendum. Unionists will do what they have always done. They will oppose it with crude violence, the vast majority of it targeted at unarmed catholics. This time though, their goose is cooked. History has run out of time for them. It would be nice to think they'll say it's a fair cop, but every historical precedent tells us THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

And yet you talk about sinister nationalism?
Due to Teb terrorism we will never accept a United Ireland.
It is one island but two separate cultures that due to the violent nature of Irish nationalism will never be compatible.
 


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