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Unionism must have a veto on Irish reunification - Seamus Mallon

firefly123

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Yes -in fact 'twas your good self who first suggested that if we all wanted a higher threshold for a referendum then it could be the subject of a negotiation in which large concessions towards a united Ireland could be introduced in return for Nationalist consent for a sixty per cent Border Poll result. I think it would be a particularly good answer in these Brexit times which allowed NI very special status in the EU and UK while putting it firmly back in the Irish set up and at the same time giving a Unionist veto over full unity. It would be a half way house which might suit Nationalists very well and long term unity would be a near certainty. Can't see the Duppers going for it but those boys have been sailing close to the wind and are due a soaking and maybe that will wake them up.

BTW I don't want to change the 50+1 at all. I happen to believe that 50+1 will not happen without a substantial level of Protestant acceptance anyway. I believe that people in NI in both camps will be able to sense the change of atmosphere in which a poll result would not lead to too much trouble. But I might not be right and I believe in the conciliatory approach anyway. It will always make it better even if it's not entirely necessary.
Unfortunately to make all these plans you need cooperation. What seems to be happening is a blank denial of reality by unionist politicians with each being afraid of the Lundy tag. Therefore no-one will talk about the elephant in the room. So the nationalists make plans and then get accused of exclusion. When unionists are invited to participate they refuse as if by acknowledging the elephant it will become real.
 


Newrybhoy

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Unfortunately to make all these plans you need cooperation. What seems to be happening is a blank denial of reality by unionist politicians with each being afraid of the Lundy tag. Therefore no-one will talk about the elephant in the room. So the nationalists make plans and then get accused of exclusion. When unionists are invited to participate they refuse as if by acknowledging the elephant it will become real.
There is nothing to talk about. Republicans are nowhere close to getting a majority for a UI.

Why on earth would unionists encourage republican delusions?
 

Ireniall

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Unfortunately to make all these plans you need cooperation. What seems to be happening is a blank denial of reality by unionist politicians with each being afraid of the Lundy tag. Therefore no-one will talk about the elephant in the room. So the nationalists make plans and then get accused of exclusion. When unionists are invited to participate they refuse as if by acknowledging the elephant it will become real.
There are ways around that. It's not that it is a mystery to us what they will want anyway but negotiations have unique ability to extract the maximum from each party in a way that no other processes can. One way to probe this would be to have an exploratory, non binding referendum first(no-before your next wisecrack-not like f**king Brexit)-a real non-binding referendum to clear the air and let the coming united Ireland show its inevitable face if that is what the poll returns. Then we can talk about what actually happens.
 

Talk Back

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There are ways around that. It's not that it is a mystery to us what they will want anyway but negotiations have unique ability to extract the maximum from each party in a way that no other processes can. One way to probe this would be to have an exploratory, non binding referendum first(no-before your next wisecrack-not like f**king Brexit)-a real non-binding referendum to clear the air and let the coming united Ireland show its inevitable face if that is what the poll returns. Then we can talk about what actually happens.
Serious whiff of Unionist desperation emanating from this one.
 

Ireniall

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There is nothing to talk about. Republicans are nowhere close to getting a majority for a UI.

Why on earth would unionists encourage republican delusions?
Do the dead enjoy your whistling as you walk by?
 

Ireniall

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Serious whiff of Unionist desperation emanating from this one.
My God -you are a twerp. A non-binding referendum will tend to maximise the united Ireland vote since it will remove the fears associated with actually taking that step and allow Nationalists of all types to vote for it thereby strengthening their position in the coming negotiations into the bargain. At the same time -assuming a majority overall or a vast majority of Catholics vote in favour of unity it will be a red card for the Union and will be impossible for Unionists to ignore. Of course, if they had any sense they would never let it get to that but sure that's another story.
 

death or glory

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My God -you are a twerp. A non-binding referendum will tend to maximise the united Ireland vote since it will remove the fears associated with actually taking that step and allow Nationalists of all types to vote for it thereby strengthening their position in the coming negotiations into the bargain. At the same time -assuming a majority overall or a vast majority of Catholics vote in favour of unity it will be a red card for the Union and will be impossible for Unionists to ignore. Of course, if they had any sense they would never let it get to that but sure that's another story.
I take it you don t know that there was a referendum on a UI in Northern Ireland before.
99% wanted to remain in the UK and still Rebs tried to terrorise us into a UI.
 

Newrybhoy

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My God -you are a twerp. A non-binding referendum will tend to maximise the united Ireland vote since it will remove the fears associated with actually taking that step and allow Nationalists of all types to vote for it thereby strengthening their position in the coming negotiations into the bargain. At the same time -assuming a majority overall or a vast majority of Catholics vote in favour of unity it will be a red card for the Union and will be impossible for Unionists to ignore. Of course, if they had any sense they would never let it get to that but sure that's another story.
What non binding referendum is this?
Sorry I hadn't seen your other post.

So now you want a free go with no downsides to test the water.

I'll do you a deal, you can have a vote in the morning,once and for all,seeing it is outside the GFA criteria.

Put up or shut up.
 
Last edited:

Ireniall

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I take it you don t know that there was a referendum on a UI in Northern Ireland before.
99% wanted to remain in the UK and still Rebs tried to terrorise us into a UI.
Right. So every one and his dog including your own prime minister are all fretting over nathing is it. Just to help you past the blockage like -lets just pretend that Catholics might vote for a united Ireland-what do you think that your lot should do?
 

Ireniall

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What non binding referendum is this?
Sorry I hadn't seen your other post.

So now you want a free go with no downsides to test the water.

I'll do you a deal, you can have a vote in the morning,once and for all,seeing it is outside the GFA criteria.

Put up or shut up.
Your analysis of the situation is faulty. In the almost certain eventuality that Nationalist parties overtake Unionist ones in the Assembly and assuming they see the merits of a nonbinding referendum their calls for such would be virtually irresistible and Unionists would be presented with the choice to have a binding border poll or the kind I am proposing. Squeaky bum time you might say. Yes a binding border poll will frighten off some Protestants and Catholics but if there's still enough to win it will finally allow us to forget about the idiocy of the DUP turkeys voting for Brexit because we will have such a massive one to replace it. There is some chance that a vote on the EU withdrawal agreement as it applies to NI might provide a similar situation
 

Newrybhoy

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Your analysis of the situation is faulty. In the almost certain eventuality that Nationalist parties overtake Unionist ones in the Assembly and assuming they see the merits of a nonbinding referendum their calls for such would be virtually irresistible and Unionists would be presented with the choice to have a binding border poll or the kind I am proposing. Squeaky bum time you might say. Yes a binding border poll will frighten off some Protestants and Catholics but if there's still enough to win it will finally allow us to forget about the idiocy of the DUP turkeys voting for Brexit because we will have such a massive one to replace it. There is some chance that a vote on the EU withdrawal agreement as it applies to NI might provide a similar situation
There is no Assembly thanks to SF.

If it reconvenes, your fantasy poll will be scuppered by a Petition of Concern.
 

Ireniall

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There is no Assembly thanks to SF.

If it reconvenes, your fantasy poll will be scuppered by a Petition of Concern.
Is it your contention that a widely supported Border Poll of whatever type could be prevented by technical maneuvers in the Assembly or anywhere else? It might take a couple of years of campaigning but it would certainly happen and then Unionists would have to decide. At least you didn't mention the Secretary of State not calling a poll.
 

firefly123

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There is nothing to talk about. Republicans are nowhere close to getting a majority for a UI.

Why on earth would unionists encourage republican delusions?
May I present exhibit A your Honour.
 

firefly123

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I take it you don t know that there was a referendum on a UI in Northern Ireland before.
99% wanted to remain in the UK and still Rebs tried to terrorise us into a UI.
1973...
That's 46 years ago.
In the middle of the troubles.
Boycotted by the nationalist community.
A 98% vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

Not exactly relevant is it?
 

Newrybhoy

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Is it your contention that a widely supported Border Poll of whatever type could be prevented by technical maneuvers in the Assembly or anywhere else? It might take a couple of years of campaigning but it would certainly happen and then Unionists would have to decide. At least you didn't mention the Secretary of State not calling a poll.
The Secretary of State only has to consider calling a poll when nationalists become a majority. That's years away if at all.
 

firefly123

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The Secretary of State only has to consider calling a poll when nationalists become a majority. That's years away if at all.
So what's the harm in engaging in some discussion about what a future unified ireland might look like now. A bit of forward planning. Think of it like insurance. you may never need it but it's no harm.

Instead we have people insinuating war or some sort of retreat to the heartland.
 

death or glory

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Right. So every one and his dog including your own prime minister are all fretting over nathing is it. Just to help you past the blockage like -lets just pretend that Catholics might vote for a united Ireland-what do you think that your lot should do?
Well ok if you want me to indulge your fantasies.
The Twelfth would obviously have to beca public holiday, we would o obviously still be part of the commonwealth.
The Angelus would have to be consigned to history.
We would need guarantees that a sectarian state that decimated the peaceful protestant population would not be able to do the same.
There would need a new flag and anthem and our British culture and traditions would have to be allowed to parade in Dublin
 

Newrybhoy

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So what's the harm in engaging in some discussion about what a future unified ireland might look like now. A bit of forward planning. Think of it like insurance. you may never need it but it's no harm.

Instead we have people insinuating war or some sort of retreat to the heartland.
As I said why would we give hope to republican aspirations?
 

death or glory

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1973...
That's 46 years ago.
In the middle of the troubles.
Boycotted by the nationalist community.
A 98% vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

Not exactly relevant is it?
Why did you boycott it?

Why could Unionists not do the same?
 

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