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Unionism must have a veto on Irish reunification - Seamus Mallon

Estragon

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Well I definitely don't accept all of that and I find your views about Protestants owning the good land to be chillingly sinister and unlikely to be the basis of any sort of unity. A hint of this stuff will have everyone running from the idea.
Ireniall, your problem is that the lessons of Irish history have been lost on you.

Every move towards the independence of this country from Britain has been opposed tooth and nail, without regard to the niceties by Unionists. Democracy decreed Ireland should have be given it's independence in 1918. Britain flouted that unambiguous democratic expression. When they couldn't bludgeon and murder the natives into submission, they did the next best thing and hacked the country in two.

The six counties was an abortion from the very start. The nationalists there were treated like filth. Only for World War 2 it would have been an economic basket case for much of its existence.

The most modest steps towards lifting the boot off the Fenian throat by Terence O'Neill were met by fascist venom with few precedents on this island.

There will be a unity referendum. Unionists will do what they have always done. They will oppose it with crude violence, the vast majority of it targeted at unarmed catholics. This time though, their goose is cooked. History has run out of time for them. It would be nice to think they'll say it's a fair cop, but every historical precedent tells us THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

And yet you talk about sinister nationalism?
 


firefly123

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Why did you boycott it?

Why could Unionists not do the same?

I wasn't alive at the time so I didn't boycott it. To be honest I know little of the event other than 1973 was a dark time in the north and perhaps it was a sure thing result given the demographics at the time. Not exactly the same in the near future.


Well indeed you could boycott. That would be your democratic right of course. You will still have to respect the outcome though.
 

death or glory

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Ireniall, your problem is that the lessons of Irish history have been lost on you.

Every move towards the independence of this country from Britain has been opposed tooth and nail, without regard to the niceties by Unionists. Democracy decreed Ireland should have be given it's independence in 1918. Britain flouted that unambiguous democratic expression. When they couldn't bludgeon and murder the natives into submission, they did the next best thing and hacked the country in two.

The six counties was an abortion from the very start. The nationalists there were treated like filth. Only for World War 2 it would have been an economic basket case for much of its existence.

The most modest steps towards lifting the boot off the Fenian throat by Terence O'Neill were met by fascist venom with few precedents on this island.

There will be a unity referendum. Unionists will do what they have always done. They will oppose it with crude violence, the vast majority of it targeted at unarmed catholics. This time though, their goose is cooked. History has run out of time for them. It would be nice to think they'll say it's a fair cop, but every historical precedent tells us THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

And yet you talk about sinister nationalism?
Due to Teb terrorism we will never accept a United Ireland.
It is one island but two separate cultures that due to the violent nature of Irish nationalism will never be compatible.
 

death or glory

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I wasn't alive at the time so I didn't boycott it. To be honest I know little of the event other than 1973 was a dark time in the north and perhaps it was a sure thing result given the demographics at the time. Not exactly the same in the near future.


Well indeed you could boycott. That would be your democratic right of course. You will still have to respect the outcome though.
Well youse never respected the referendum in 1973 so you have a cheek expecting us to respect one that we boycott.
What di you think was the reason was for the boycott anyway?
 

firefly123

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Due to Teb terrorism we will never accept a United Ireland.
It is one island but two separate cultures that due to the violent nature of Irish nationalism will never be compatible.
Well that might pose a problem in the not too distant future.
But sure look it. I'm sure a few pints and a chat will sort it .
 

firefly123

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Well youse never respected the referendum in 1973 so you have a cheek expecting us to respect one that we boycott.
What di you think was the reason was for the boycott anyway?
Well look. Boycott it and see what happens.

As I am happy to admit I don't know the details other than a quick googlidge.
 

Ireniall

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Well ok if you want me to indulge your fantasies.
The Twelfth would obviously have to beca public holiday, we would o obviously still be part of the commonwealth.
The Angelus would have to be consigned to history.
We would need guarantees that a sectarian state that decimated the peaceful protestant population would not be able to do the same.
There would need a new flag and anthem and our British culture and traditions would have to be allowed to parade in Dublin
The Twelfth would obviously have to beca public holiday, we would o obviously still be part of the commonwealth.- Yes

The Angelus would have to be consigned to history.- So I take you're planning to remain on as Protestants is it. Well that can be addressed later so yes -I agree to that

We would need guarantees that a sectarian state that decimated the peaceful protestant population would not be able to do the same. -So you want us to stop taking yer wimin is it? Well ok but 'twould help if you could tell them to stop wiggling their lovely asses at us. Drives us mad and ,you know , we're Catholics. The discipline is shaky at best.


There would need a new flag and anthem and our British culture and traditions would have to be allowed to parade in Dublin . yes
 

death or glory

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Well look. Boycott it and see what happens.

As I am happy to admit I don't know the details other than a quick googlidge.
There will be no need to boycott as it will not happen as there is no realistic outlook of the verdict you want.

Anyway it would bound to break the GFA which since Brexit you seem to take as Gospel.
 

death or glory

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Don't go there again. That's effectively what y'all did before the Anglo-Irish Agreement
They didn t put the Anglo Irish agreement to a vote because they knew they would have lost big style.
So how is it similar a democratic vote to a dictate between two governments to which a large proportion of the people were ignored?
Ulster still says NO.
 

Newrybhoy

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Ireniall, your problem is that the lessons of Irish history have been lost on you.

Every move towards the independence of this country from Britain has been opposed tooth and nail, without regard to the niceties by Unionists. Democracy decreed Ireland should have be given it's independence in 1918. Britain flouted that unambiguous democratic expression. When they couldn't bludgeon and murder the natives into submission, they did the next best thing and hacked the country in two.

The six counties was an abortion from the very start. The nationalists there were treated like filth. Only for World War 2 it would have been an economic basket case for much of its existence.

The most modest steps towards lifting the boot off the Fenian throat by Terence O'Neill were met by fascist venom with few precedents on this island.

There will be a unity referendum. Unionists will do what they have always done. They will oppose it with crude violence, the vast majority of it targeted at unarmed catholics. This time though, their goose is cooked. History has run out of time for them. It would be nice to think they'll say it's a fair cop, but every historical precedent tells us THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

And yet you talk about sinister nationalism?
Dry your eyes ffs.
 

Ireniall

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They didn t put the Anglo Irish agreement to a vote because they knew they would have lost big style.
So how is it similar a democratic vote to a dictate between two governments to which a large proportion of the people were ignored?
Ulster still says NO.
Don't be under any illusion that a boycott by Unionists of a Border Poll will result with things staying the same. That is what it has in common with the period before the Anglo Irish Agreement. Unionism had effectively vetoed any serious change up to the signing of that agreement and it was an effective tactic right up to the point when it wasn't and everything changed
 

death or glory

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Don't be under any illusion that a boycott by Unionists of a Border Poll will result with things staying the same. That is what it has in common with the period before the Anglo Irish Agreement. Unionism had effectively vetoed any serious change up to the signing of that agreement and it was an effective tactic right up to the point when it wasn't and everything changed
But the Anglo Irish agreement was forced upon a people who didn't want it. That is highly undemocratic.

There will be no poll as there is mo likelihood of it being for a UI so we will not need to boycott.

The reason nationalists boycotted the previous border poll was because they were scared that Reb terrorism would lose legitimacy because it was against the democratic will of the people of Ulster.
 

McSlaggart

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Due to Teb terrorism we will never accept a United Ireland.
It is one island but two separate cultures that due to the violent nature of Irish nationalism will never be compatible.
"Unionist culture" is embraced by what society?
 

McSlaggart

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But the Anglo Irish agreement was forced upon a people who didn't want it. That is highly undemocratic.

There will be no poll as there is mo likelihood of it being for a UI so we will not need to boycott.

The reason nationalists boycotted the previous border poll was because they were scared that Reb terrorism would lose legitimacy because it was against the democratic will of the people of Ulster.
When was the vote offered to the people of ulster?
 

death or glory

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Ireniall

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But the Anglo Irish agreement was forced upon a people who didn't want it. That is highly undemocratic.

There will be no poll as there is mo likelihood of it being for a UI so we will not need to boycott.

The reason nationalists boycotted the previous border poll was because they were scared that Reb terrorism would lose legitimacy because it was against the democratic will of the people of Ulster.
The Nationalists boycotted because their disgraceful inclusion into the northern state meant that they were permanently outvoted. When I hear British people of the Brexiteer variety or their fellow travelers talking about democracy my cynic-o-meter goes into involuntary spasms. Essentially what they mean is that if they don't get their way it's undemocratic and the rules of democracy are for other people to adhere to -not them. Btw the AIA was negotiated by the legitimate government of the UK whose members were selected by a democratic process across the UK. Are you suggesting that the government of the UK does not properly represent your interests?
 

death or glory

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The Nationalists boycotted because their disgraceful inclusion into the northern state meant that they were permanently outvoted. When I hear British people of the Brexiteer variety or their fellow travelers talking about democracy my cynic-o-meter goes into involuntary spasms. Essentially what they mean is that if they don't get their way it's undemocratic and the rules of democracy are for other people to adhere to -not them. Btw the AIA was negotiated by the legitimate government of the UK whose members were selected by a democratic process across the UK. Are you suggesting that the government of the UK does not properly represent your interests?
So as I thought Northern Irish nats didn't respect the Democratic wish, whereas to do so would have removed any semblance of legitimacy from Reb terrorist scum.
Now that they think they have a slight hope of becoming a majority they are all for it.
That is hypocrisy taken to a new level, but hey that's what we came to expect of nats.
 

Ireniall

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So as I thought Northern Irish nats didn't respect the Democratic wish, whereas to do so would have removed any semblance of legitimacy from Reb terrorist scum.
Now that they think they have a slight hope of becoming a majority they are all for it.
That is hypocrisy taken to a new level, but hey that's what we came to expect of nats.
NI Nats made a perfectly understandable response to a disgusting referendum designed to remind them of the fact that they had been forcibly included into an illegitimate state-essentially an act of war. This remained the case until the GFA was negotiated.
 

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