Unions' squabbling over demarcation despite hospital trolley crisis

making waves

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Of course there's not even a whisper of union action to impede any measure to deal with the crisis.

But that won't stop our Pat going off on a deranged rant about what might happen if there was.
There has been trade union action this week - in an attempt to force employers to implement basic health procedures to protect workers from infection - but the likes of patslatt would attack this as 'demarcation'.
 


Uganda

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Really - the staff who are now risking their lives to treat people in a pandemic

I am defending health workers from the ranting of anti-trade union hacks - 100 years of right-wing governments have done nothing for patients in this country except a century of under-funding the health system and causing scandal after scandal that cost people's lives.
€19bn a year (excluding buildings) is underfunding?

utter nonsense.

the problem is that the 19bn hasn’t been spent in the right way.

the IT systems are anti deluvian. The savings that could be made with good IT are enormous ( with additional benefits for patient safety).

but those savings would only be produced by reducing the amount of penpushers.

but you regard hiring more penpushers than are needed as a core activity of a health service
 

Patslatt1

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Trollie count by the nurses union is to try and force the government to give in to their latest demands and we'll shut up. Nurses do their trollie count before the 8am day shift arrived to deal with the nights takings, if counted after 12 noon numbers would be less. We still have nurses doing the cleaning in operation theatres. a job that is done in other counties by staff after six month training. They are also still blocking the employing of nursing assistance in the wards.
ARROGANCE
My perception of nursing union leaders on television and radio has been militant arrogance ,verbosity and whingeing.
 

Sync

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Zero evidence to support the claim? Ad hominem attack on the public service? Must be a patslatt thread.
 

Patslatt1

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The people who are 'coping' with Covid 19 are the frontline hospital staff and the auxiliary staff who are putting their lives on the line to treat and help the victims of this virus - the very same people you are attempting to denigrate to promote your agenda of privatisation and anti-trade union sanctions.

As I stated before - workers throughout the Europe - including Ireland - have been forced to take strike action to force greedy employers to implement basic health procedures to protect against the spread of contagion. In non-union workplaces workers are being forced into unsafe working conditions - or are being dumped out of work without a bye-or-leave. These are numerous examples of the - like the private for profit creches who have sacked all their workers but are still demanding that working class families continue to pay their fees to hold their place, despite the fact that the children have been sent home.


UHL is a basket case when it comes to the A&E - it consistently has the highest trolley count in the country and that is directly as a result of shutting the A&E departments in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's A&E without providing the needed funding and staff in Limerick to make up the deficit. The Irish health system has had 100 years of gross under-investment leading to a situation today where Ireland has one of the lowest number of ICU beds per head of population in the OECD. In 2009 a Dept of Health capacity review stated that the Irish health system needed to more than double the number of ICU beds, just to bring it up to the OECD average - guess how many extra ICU beds have been made available since then? - zero. This crisis is going to be exasperated by the fact that Irish governments have continuously given big business and MNC billions in tax breaks rather than investing the needed funds into the health service and people have died as a result - and many more will needlessly die during the current crisis a result.

And while you and the other anti-trade union right-wing hacks sit at your computers ranting about demarcation - it is the trade union members working in hospitals that will be treating people and saving people's lives.
MAKING WAVES OF SOCIALIST PROPAGANDA
Did I criticise the staff in criticising the hospital unions' demarcation on jobs, a totally outdated system that sunk UK manufacturing in the 1970s? While staff union members are technically responsible for their union, in practice a small minority dominate unions and the great majority are apathetic. Just because hopital workers are performing a vital social service doesn't mean their trade unions should be above criticism.
As for privatisation of health care, I'm not against a strong government role but as in the successful systems in France, Germany and the Netherlands, most of the hospitals can perform well as private charitable organisations and some as for profit hospitals, with heavy subsidies needed for chronic and expensive care.
You whinge about lack of money for hospital capacity but at about 12% of the economy (not fictitious GDP),health care is well funded by EU standards and better funded than the UK NHS socialist model. So why is the system failing to deliver? Mainly lack of long term planning by short termist governments, failures to train enough consultants, excessive power of the doctors and the unions, vastly overpaid and overpensioned staff at all levels and an incompetent and bureaucratic HSE.
 

Patslatt1

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but all the disappeared 600 were emergencies!!!
thats why it’s called A&E

and the 190 spare beds - did the previous occupants miraculously recover? Or should they have been occupying those beds in the first place?

and if not, why were they there? If the beds can be freed up now, why not then?
The money doesn't follow the patient,so why bother.
 

Patslatt1

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so would that explain why 25% of the porters there are typically on sick leave?

and when they call in “sick” their mates on their day off come in on double pay?

one would imagine they knew their buddy would be sick next tuesday
Porters can shut down a hospital and are told to act important which to some may mean arrogant. Years ago,a trainee anesthetist told me that in an operation she attended a surgeon asked a porter to bring something urgently needed from the store room to save an elderly woman in a very precarious situation on the operating table. The arrogant porter said it would have to wait till his smoke break ended.
 

Patslatt1

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Of course there's not even a whisper of union action to impede any measure to deal with the crisis.

But that won't stop our Pat going off on a deranged rant about what might happen if there was.
So nurses assistants are now free to work in hospitals???????
 

Patslatt1

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Really - the staff who are now risking their lives to treat people in a pandemic

I am defending health workers from the ranting of anti-trade union hacks - 100 years of right-wing governments have done nothing for patients in this country except a century of under-funding the health system and causing scandal after scandal that cost people's lives.
MAKING WAVES OF LEFTY PROPAGANDA
 

Patslatt1

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There has been trade union action this week - in an attempt to force employers to implement basic health procedures to protect workers from infection - but the likes of patslatt would attack this as 'demarcation'.
It's a completely novel situation which takes time for businesses to absorb. I asked a manager in a busy fast food joint to have staff wipe the metal handles of the main door with antiseptic every hour or so. With heavy traffic, a few customers with the virus could contaminate the handles. Even though staff normally clean counter tops, she inexplicably said it couldn't be done. Some people are just stupid. I wrote two emails of complaint to the headquarters of the franchise.
 

making waves

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It's a completely novel situation which takes time for businesses to absorb. I asked a manager in a busy fast food joint to have staff wipe the metal handles of the main door with antiseptic every hour or so. With heavy traffic, a few customers with the virus could contaminate the handles. Even though staff normally clean counter tops, she inexplicably said it couldn't be done. Some people are just stupid. I wrote two emails of complaint to the headquarters of the franchise.
What a load of b*ollocks - businesses have been consciously ignoring health guidelines wholesale.

About a mile away from where I am sitting, a factory employing 400 workers is flouting health guidelines - the workers are standing side-by-side on a production line handing items to one another with no protective gear what-so-ever. When the workers complained they were told get on with it and the excuse used was they weren't standing face-to-face. Since then several workers have decided not to go to work - but they will not get any welfare help. Oh - and it is an anti-union company - if there was a union organised in the place then this would be sorted within minutes of the staff would have walked off the job.
 

making waves

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Porters can shut down a hospital and are told to act important which to some may mean arrogant. Years ago,a trainee anesthetist told me that in an operation she attended a surgeon asked a porter to bring something urgently needed from the store room to save an elderly woman in a very precarious situation on the operating table. The arrogant porter said it would have to wait till his smoke break ended.
Oh yea - it is all the fault of the porters - old wives tales growing legs.
 

Uganda

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What a load of b*ollocks - businesses have been consciously ignoring health guidelines wholesale.

About a mile away from where I am sitting, a factory employing 400 workers is flouting health guidelines - the workers are standing side-by-side on a production line handing items to one another with no protective gear what-so-ever. When the workers complained they were told get on with it and the excuse used was they weren't standing face-to-face. Since then several workers have decided not to go to work - but they will not get any welfare help. Oh - and it is an anti-union company - if there was a union organised in the place then this would be sorted within minutes of the staff would have walked off the job.
And did any of these have 2 pints in their hands?
 

making waves

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As for privatisation of health care, I'm not against a strong government role but as in the successful systems in France, Germany and the Netherlands, most of the hospitals can perform well as private charitable organisations and some as for profit hospitals, with heavy subsidies needed for chronic and expensive care.
You whinge about lack of money for hospital capacity but at about 12% of the economy (not fictitious GDP),health care is well funded by EU standards and better funded than the UK NHS socialist model. So why is the system failing to deliver? Mainly lack of long term planning by short termist governments, failures to train enough consultants, excessive power of the doctors and the unions, vastly overpaid and overpensioned staff at all levels and an incompetent and bureaucratic HSE.
Compulsory health insurance and privatisation of health care has been an absolute disaster for the Netherlands - the average cost per family is now more than €7,000 per year and half the hospitals in the country are on the verge of bankruptcy. Similarly in Germany where the state has regularly to bail out bankrupt hospitals. Healthcare in France is funded by national health insurance.

You claim that Irish health care is 'well-funded by EU standards' - to start with it is not - but even if it was it wouldn't make up for the gross under-investment in health care since the foundation of the state. And the NHS isn't a 'socialist' model - it is a capitalist welfare state model.

And at the end of the day you point the finger at 'overpaid and overpensioned staff' - just drive down wages and all will be right with the world. This is the same staff that will be risking their lives to try and save your life if you end up in hospital as a critical patient from covid19 infection. When you get there go and tell them that they are over-paid and over pensioned and see how they react to you. I have a much better idea - a 10% wealth tax on the richest 300 people in the country would increase investment in health care by 50% - then we could see a dramatic improvement in the trolley crisis and every other aspect of health care in the country.
 

Uganda

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Compulsory health insurance and privatisation of health care has been an absolute disaster for the Netherlands - the average cost per family is now more than €7,000 per year and half the hospitals in the country are on the verge of bankruptcy. Similarly in Germany where the state has regularly to bail out bankrupt hospitals. Healthcare in France is funded by national health insurance.

You claim that Irish health care is 'well-funded by EU standards' - to start with it is not - but even if it was it wouldn't make up for the gross under-investment in health care since the foundation of the state. And the NHS isn't a 'socialist' model - it is a capitalist welfare state model.

And at the end of the day you point the finger at 'overpaid and overpensioned staff' - just drive down wages and all will be right with the world. This is the same staff that will be risking their lives to try and save your life if you end up in hospital as a critical patient from covid19 infection. When you get there go and tell them that they are over-paid and over pensioned and see how they react to you. I have a much better idea - a 10% wealth tax on the richest 300 people in the country would increase investment in health care by 50% - then we could see a dramatic improvement in the trolley crisis and every other aspect of health care in the country.

What trolley crisis?
 

Sweet Darling

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Zero evidence to support the claim? Ad hominem attack on the public service? Must be a patslatt thread.
Do highly trained nurses do the low skilled cleaning in operating theaters.? yes.
Do nurses take their trollies count before 8am and HSE after 11am.? yes. Is Ireland still operating without nursing assistances in the wards.? yes
 

Patslatt1

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Compulsory health insurance and privatisation of health care has been an absolute disaster for the Netherlands - the average cost per family is now more than €7,000 per year and half the hospitals in the country are on the verge of bankruptcy. Similarly in Germany where the state has regularly to bail out bankrupt hospitals. Healthcare in France is funded by national health insurance.

You claim that Irish health care is 'well-funded by EU standards' - to start with it is not - but even if it was it wouldn't make up for the gross under-investment in health care since the foundation of the state. And the NHS isn't a 'socialist' model - it is a capitalist welfare state model.

And at the end of the day you point the finger at 'overpaid and overpensioned staff' - just drive down wages and all will be right with the world. This is the same staff that will be risking their lives to try and save your life if you end up in hospital as a critical patient from covid19 infection. When you get there go and tell them that they are over-paid and over pensioned and see how they react to you. I have a much better idea - a 10% wealth tax on the richest 300 people in the country would increase investment in health care by 50% - then we could see a dramatic improvement in the trolley crisis and every other aspect of health care in the country.
MAKING HARD LEFTY WAVES OF BULLSAND BLUSTER
Gross underinvestment of health care since the foundation of the state, you say. For decades,Irish Hospital Sweepstakes lottery funded hospitals all over Ireland to the point we had too many. Those sweepstake tickets were widely sold in the USA where gambling was forbidden.
Nursing and teaching were considered the most attractive careers for women until the 1980s maybe because women were treated as reserve employees in many businesses thanks to onerous family commitments from lack of birth control. For men, the profession of doctor has always been the most prestigious. So there was no shortage of staff.
The NHS is SOCIALIST because it is the biggest employer in Europe with over a million workers on the state payroll. Get you facts straight before bluster.
As for France, Netherlands and Germany, their predominantly private hospitals are delivering high quality health care. The funding of occasional bankruptcies in Germany doesn't mean the care isn't high quality. Bankruptcies are a fact of life in business.
Just because health care workers are delivering services in dangerous conditions for COVID virus doesn't mean their gold plated pay and pensions can't be criticised. In wartime, should countries give the soldiers an open treasury? Irish nurses are paid about 40% more than UK nurses. A young Irishman I met who was employed to sterilise surgical instruments told me that his pay as a supervisor in London which included London allowance was far less than his pay in a hospital as a non supervisory worker in a rural Ireland.
As for the wealth tax, it's populist bullsand, a totally inefficient tax because of the extreme difficulty of annual valuations and related high costs. There are three wealth taxes already, on property, capital gains and distributed estate. You should read the children's story about killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
But if you are a Marxist or Trotskyist, the need for such a belief similar to religious belief will cause confirmation bias, only looking at evidence that supports your beliefs.
 


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