Unions' squabbling over demarcation despite hospital trolley crisis

making waves

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WURKERS
They are always right and bosses always wrong in your Marxist/Trotskyist mind.
Not a matter of right and wrong patslatt - and here was me thinking you might be smart enough to understand this.

This is about class interests - on one side you have the bosses whose objective is to maximise profit and marketshare - on the other side are workers who must sell their labour power to the bosses to survive. It is in the bosses interest to force down wages and working conditions as much as possible to maximise profit and market share - the boss cannot help themselves, under capitalism it is an economic imperative. It is in the workers interest to maximise wages and improve working conditions, under capitalism that is an economic imperative. This is the essence of the class struggle under capitalism and never the twain shall meet.

The reason why socialists oppose capitalism is because it is a system that operates in the interests of one social class - the bosses - and a system of conflict that wastes resources to an enormous degree. The reason why socialists campaign for a democratically planned socialised economy is because such an economy would eliminate class conflict and eliminate the waste of resources, with society operating in the interest of all of the population of the planet, not just the 1%.

This pandemic is a demonstration of the nature of capitalism - globalised capitalism that is engaged in the destruction of the planet's environment, global agribusiness destroying wildlife habitats that contain numerous amounts of viruses and bacteria, that create superbugs, etc. Since the globalisation of agribusiness and the mass destruction of environmental habitats over the past 40 years we have seen the emergence of more than 1,400 human pathogens, more than in all previous human history. Coupled with that you have the dismantling and the privatisation of the welfare state health systems in Europe and the treatment of healthcare as a commodity - further compounding the problem.

The approach of ruling class is demosntrated in the USA - $50billion as support for fighting the coronavirus - $1.5trillion in a failed attempt to stop a collapse in the stock market. The reason why the virus has spread so rapidly is because the bosses want to keep their revenue streams open - they don't and didn't want to shut down profitable businesses (and there are ample examples of this in Ireland). It is only since yesterday, and after a strike wave by workers, that the Italian government has finally shut down workplaces to try and contain the spread of the virus that is now out of control. The UK and the USA are going to be hardest hit in this pandemic because of the approach of Johnson and Trump. Ireland is not immune - there are still countless businesses operating without proper social distancing and proper health procedures in place - and these should be shut immediately. The post office has just announced staggered working hours for their staff to create proper social distancing - three weeks later than it should have happened - and it only happened after a strike by post office workers in D15 last week that threatened to spread countrywide. On top of that - the ruling elites are now imposing draconian legislation - increasing police powers - potentially banning all kinds of dissent - and in Ireland they can continue to do this for the rest of the year. The exploitation and abuse of power by the ruling elites is gobsmacking - but their attitude is - never waste a crisis to impose dictatorial powers.
 


Sweet Darling

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Not a matter of right and wrong patslatt - and here was me thinking you might be smart enough to understand this.

This is about class interests - on one side you have the bosses whose objective is to maximise profit and marketshare - on the other side are workers who must sell their labour power to the bosses to survive. It is in the bosses interest to force down wages and working conditions as much as possible to maximise profit and market share - the boss cannot help themselves, under capitalism it is an economic imperative. It is in the workers interest to maximise wages and improve working conditions, under capitalism that is an economic imperative. This is the essence of the class struggle under capitalism and never the twain shall meet.

The reason why socialists oppose capitalism is because it is a system that operates in the interests of one social class - the bosses - and a system of conflict that wastes resources to an enormous degree. The reason why socialists campaign for a democratically planned socialised economy is because such an economy would eliminate class conflict and eliminate the waste of resources, with society operating in the interest of all of the population of the planet, not just the 1%.

This pandemic is a demonstration of the nature of capitalism - globalised capitalism that is engaged in the destruction of the planet's environment, global agribusiness destroying wildlife habitats that contain numerous amounts of viruses and bacteria, that create superbugs, etc. Since the globalisation of agribusiness and the mass destruction of environmental habitats over the past 40 years we have seen the emergence of more than 1,400 human pathogens, more than in all previous human history. Coupled with that you have the dismantling and the privatisation of the welfare state health systems in Europe and the treatment of healthcare as a commodity - further compounding the problem.

The approach of ruling class is demosntrated in the USA - $50billion as support for fighting the coronavirus - $1.5trillion in a failed attempt to stop a collapse in the stock market. The reason why the virus has spread so rapidly is because the bosses want to keep their revenue streams open - they don't and didn't want to shut down profitable businesses (and there are ample examples of this in Ireland). It is only since yesterday, and after a strike wave by workers, that the Italian government has finally shut down workplaces to try and contain the spread of the virus that is now out of control. The UK and the USA are going to be hardest hit in this pandemic because of the approach of Johnson and Trump. Ireland is not immune - there are still countless businesses operating without proper social distancing and proper health procedures in place - and these should be shut immediately. The post office has just announced staggered working hours for their staff to create proper social distancing - three weeks later than it should have happened - and it only happened after a strike by post office workers in D15 last week that threatened to spread countrywide. On top of that - the ruling elites are now imposing draconian legislation - increasing police powers - potentially banning all kinds of dissent - and in Ireland they can continue to do this for the rest of the year. The exploitation and abuse of power by the ruling elites is gobsmacking - but their attitude is - never waste a crisis to impose dictatorial powers.
This sounds like my type of system.
Could you give me a list of countries where it is in use so I can study it.
 

Patslatt1

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Not a matter of right and wrong patslatt - and here was me thinking you might be smart enough to understand this.

This is about class interests - on one side you have the bosses whose objective is to maximise profit and marketshare - on the other side are workers who must sell their labour power to the bosses to survive. It is in the bosses interest to force down wages and working conditions as much as possible to maximise profit and market share - the boss cannot help themselves, under capitalism it is an economic imperative. It is in the workers interest to maximise wages and improve working conditions, under capitalism that is an economic imperative. This is the essence of the class struggle under capitalism and never the twain shall meet.

The reason why socialists oppose capitalism is because it is a system that operates in the interests of one social class - the bosses - and a system of conflict that wastes resources to an enormous degree. The reason why socialists campaign for a democratically planned socialised economy is because such an economy would eliminate class conflict and eliminate the waste of resources, with society operating in the interest of all of the population of the planet, not just the 1%.

This pandemic is a demonstration of the nature of capitalism - globalised capitalism that is engaged in the destruction of the planet's environment, global agribusiness destroying wildlife habitats that contain numerous amounts of viruses and bacteria, that create superbugs, etc. Since the globalisation of agribusiness and the mass destruction of environmental habitats over the past 40 years we have seen the emergence of more than 1,400 human pathogens, more than in all previous human history. Coupled with that you have the dismantling and the privatisation of the welfare state health systems in Europe and the treatment of healthcare as a commodity - further compounding the problem.

The approach of ruling class is demosntrated in the USA - $50billion as support for fighting the coronavirus - $1.5trillion in a failed attempt to stop a collapse in the stock market. The reason why the virus has spread so rapidly is because the bosses want to keep their revenue streams open - they don't and didn't want to shut down profitable businesses (and there are ample examples of this in Ireland). It is only since yesterday, and after a strike wave by workers, that the Italian government has finally shut down workplaces to try and contain the spread of the virus that is now out of control. The UK and the USA are going to be hardest hit in this pandemic because of the approach of Johnson and Trump. Ireland is not immune - there are still countless businesses operating without proper social distancing and proper health procedures in place - and these should be shut immediately. The post office has just announced staggered working hours for their staff to create proper social distancing - three weeks later than it should have happened - and it only happened after a strike by post office workers in D15 last week that threatened to spread countrywide. On top of that - the ruling elites are now imposing draconian legislation - increasing police powers - potentially banning all kinds of dissent - and in Ireland they can continue to do this for the rest of the year. The exploitation and abuse of power by the ruling elites is gobsmacking - but their attitude is - never waste a crisis to impose dictatorial powers.
TEXTBOOK HARD LEFT SOCIALISM
That's your description above,as if nothing has changed in capitalism since the late 19th century. The market economy is heavily regulated to protect employees and workers can organise in trade unions if they wish. When companies try to pay less than the market wage or offer inferior working conditions, they risk losing key workers to competition. A majority of workers are reasonably content with their employers.
Of course, the market economy isn't perfect but it's proved it can deliver prosperity and is vastly superior to heavy state ownership and controls of hard socialism.
 

making waves

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The market economy is heavily regulated to protect employees and workers can organise in trade unions if they wish.
Not true - we live in a very deregulated labour market - and while workers have a right to join a trade union, employers can refuse to recognise that trade union.

When companies try to pay less than the market wage or offer inferior working conditions, they risk losing key workers to competition.
If that were the case then why are there so many workers in the gig economy on zero hour contracts and bogus self employment?

A majority of workers are reasonably content with their employers.
Evidence ?

Of course, the market economy isn't perfect but it's proved it can deliver prosperity and is vastly superior to heavy state ownership and controls of hard socialism.
Capitalism delivers prosperity for the 1% - it delivers exploitation, oppression, poverty, disease and war for the 99%
 

Patslatt1

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Not true - we live in a very deregulated labour market - and while workers have a right to join a trade union, employers can refuse to recognise that trade union.


If that were the case then why are there so many workers in the gig economy on zero hour contracts and bogus self employment?


Evidence ?


Capitalism delivers prosperity for the 1% - it delivers exploitation, oppression, poverty, disease and war for the 99%
You have an extremely pessimistic view. In the mid 19th century in the 1840s an American woman walked most counties and recorded social conditions in her book, available online, "Ireland's welcome to the stranger". For a majority of tenant farmers on a few acres, potatoes were the sole food, milk was a luxury and meat very rare. Potato helpings were huge, 8 pounds a day with porridge in Dublin prison. The low grams of protein in vitamin rich lumper spuds required big consumption for minimal protein needs. People dressed in rags despite an efficient textile industry in the UK and NI. Mud huts were common in housing. Now do you see how the market economy and welfare state have vastly improved conditions since then?
As for gigs, they suit many people, especially students and women with children. In hard economic times, they allow flexibility to employers in managing labour costs, a better alternative to layoffs or closing down. As unemployment falls off and labour markets tighten, gig workers' wages as a swing section of the labour force should rise faster than average.
 

making waves

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Joined
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Messages
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You have an extremely pessimistic view. In the mid 19th century in the 1840s an American woman walked most counties and recorded social conditions in her book, available online, "Ireland's welcome to the stranger". For a majority of tenant farmers on a few acres, potatoes were the sole food, milk was a luxury and meat very rare. Potato helpings were huge, 8 pounds a day with porridge in Dublin prison. The low grams of protein in vitamin rich lumper spuds required big consumption for minimal protein needs. People dressed in rags despite an efficient textile industry in the UK and NI. Mud huts were common in housing. Now do you see how the market economy and welfare state have vastly improved conditions since then?
To start with - your history lesson of Ireland in the 1840s is false (again not a surprise given your record) - but who is comparing Ireland in 2020 with Ireland in 1840. Where have I ever argued that capitalism didn't play a vital role in developing the productive forces in society (albeit at the expense of the gross exploitation of working class people). Capitalism has reached its limits - it can now only survive by destroying the planet (and/or through global agribusiness causing pandemics) - the death agony of capitalism is dragging the entire world into the abyss (including the capitalist class who are ignoring the consequences because it is in their material interests to do so). Furthermore - the welfare state came about because of massive pressure from the working class and their organisations - in the teeth of opposition from the ruling class.

As for an 'extremely pessimistic view' - its actually the opposite - as a Marxist I am extremely optimistic about the ability of the working class to achieve economic, social and political emancipation.

As for gigs, they suit many people, especially students and women with children. In hard economic times, they allow flexibility to employers in managing labour costs, a better alternative to layoffs or closing down. As unemployment falls off and labour markets tighten, gig workers' wages as a swing section of the labour force should rise faster than average.
Oh- don't talk bullsh*t - the gig economy benefits the employers because it means they can avoid their legal responsibilities in terms of health, safety, welfare etc. if you want to create employment for students and working mothers then you do that within a secure environment that serves the interests of these workers - not the interests of employers.

Whether you realise it or not - you actually betray your own approach - demonstrating that the real purpose of the gig economy is to facilitate employers in sacking workers with ease - and without any legal obligations.
 

Patslatt1

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To start with - your history lesson of Ireland in the 1840s is false (again not a surprise given your record) - but who is comparing Ireland in 2020 with Ireland in 1840. Where have I ever argued that capitalism didn't play a vital role in developing the productive forces in society (albeit at the expense of the gross exploitation of working class people). Capitalism has reached its limits - it can now only survive by destroying the planet (and/or through global agribusiness causing pandemics) - the death agony of capitalism is dragging the entire world into the abyss (including the capitalist class who are ignoring the consequences because it is in their material interests to do so). Furthermore - the welfare state came about because of massive pressure from the working class and their organisations - in the teeth of opposition from the ruling class.

As for an 'extremely pessimistic view' - its actually the opposite - as a Marxist I am extremely optimistic about the ability of the working class to achieve economic, social and political emancipation.


Oh- don't talk bullsh*t - the gig economy benefits the employers because it means they can avoid their legal responsibilities in terms of health, safety, welfare etc. if you want to create employment for students and working mothers then you do that within a secure environment that serves the interests of these workers - not the interests of employers.

Whether you realise it or not - you actually betray your own approach - demonstrating that the real purpose of the gig economy is to facilitate employers in sacking workers with ease - and without any legal obligations.
MARXIST OUT OF CLOSET!
You admit you found new religion in Marxism, the God that failed. Marxist/Leninist dogma cost maybe 50 million lives in China in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution thanks to Chairman Mao's pigheaded socialist fanaticism.
As for global agribusiness, technology is bringing a revolution in AI controlled machine spraying of herbicides and fertiliser that could undo damage to biodiversity in tillage. As machines move across fields,cameras on board working off extremely fast processors take a photo of each plant in the machines' path and compare it to a database of what should be the plant's stage of growth. The amount of spraying is then finely tuned and minimised. This tech is already commercial in California for lettuce. It should enjoy swift adoption because of the financial savings on fertiliser and herbicide and the improved biodiversity. Products might be marketed as a category just short of organic. Several companies in the UK are producing the AI sprayers and International Harvester is the leader AFAIK.
 

Sweet Darling

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Not a matter of right and wrong patslatt - and here was me thinking you might be smart enough to understand this.

This is about class interests - on one side you have the bosses whose objective is to maximise profit and marketshare - on the other side are workers who must sell their labour power to the bosses to survive. It is in the bosses interest to force down wages and working conditions as much as possible to maximise profit and market share - the boss cannot help themselves, under capitalism it is an economic imperative. It is in the workers interest to maximise wages and improve working conditions, under capitalism that is an economic imperative. This is the essence of the class struggle under capitalism and never the twain shall meet.

The reason why socialists oppose capitalism is because it is a system that operates in the interests of one social class - the bosses - and a system of conflict that wastes resources to an enormous degree. The reason why socialists campaign for a democratically planned socialised economy is because such an economy would eliminate class conflict and eliminate the waste of resources, with society operating in the interest of all of the population of the planet, not just the 1%.

This pandemic is a demonstration of the nature of capitalism - globalised capitalism that is engaged in the destruction of the planet's environment, global agribusiness destroying wildlife habitats that contain numerous amounts of viruses and bacteria, that create superbugs, etc. Since the globalisation of agribusiness and the mass destruction of environmental habitats over the past 40 years we have seen the emergence of more than 1,400 human pathogens, more than in all previous human history. Coupled with that you have the dismantling and the privatisation of the welfare state health systems in Europe and the treatment of healthcare as a commodity - further compounding the problem.

The approach of ruling class is demosntrated in the USA - $50billion as support for fighting the coronavirus - $1.5trillion in a failed attempt to stop a collapse in the stock market. The reason why the virus has spread so rapidly is because the bosses want to keep their revenue streams open - they don't and didn't want to shut down profitable businesses (and there are ample examples of this in Ireland). It is only since yesterday, and after a strike wave by workers, that the Italian government has finally shut down workplaces to try and contain the spread of the virus that is now out of control. The UK and the USA are going to be hardest hit in this pandemic because of the approach of Johnson and Trump. Ireland is not immune - there are still countless businesses operating without proper social distancing and proper health procedures in place - and these should be shut immediately. The post office has just announced staggered working hours for their staff to create proper social distancing - three weeks later than it should have happened - and it only happened after a strike by post office workers in D15 last week that threatened to spread countrywide. On top of that - the ruling elites are now imposing draconian legislation - increasing police powers - potentially banning all kinds of dissent - and in Ireland they can continue to do this for the rest of the year. The exploitation and abuse of power by the ruling elites is gobsmacking - but their attitude is - never waste a crisis to impose dictatorial powers.
It's the so called left who are driving down wages for the bosses by their support of and pressure on government to allow unrestricted imigration
Posh boy Barrett, murphy and the generals daughter Daly have the wealth to buy homes in areas the Fugees can't.
PS. Socialism as a experiment has ended, and been judged a miserable failure.
It is still found in places due to the people not yet strong enough to give the thugs imposing it the Ceausescu treatment. North Korea, Venezuela. All the famine ridden African counties, and the third world sh1thole Cuba.
 

Sweet Darling

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To start with - your history lesson of Ireland in the 1840s is false (again not a surprise given your record) - but who is comparing Ireland in 2020 with Ireland in 1840. Where have I ever argued that capitalism didn't play a vital role in developing the productive forces in society (albeit at the expense of the gross exploitation of working class people). Capitalism has reached its limits - it can now only survive by destroying the planet (and/or through global agribusiness causing pandemics) - the death agony of capitalism is dragging the entire world into the abyss (including the capitalist class who are ignoring the consequences because it is in their material interests to do so). Furthermore - the welfare state came about because of massive pressure from the working class and their organisations - in the teeth of opposition from the ruling class.

As for an 'extremely pessimistic view' - its actually the opposite - as a Marxist I am extremely optimistic about the ability of the working class to achieve economic, social and political emancipation.


Oh- don't talk bullsh*t - the gig economy benefits the employers because it means they can avoid their legal responsibilities in terms of health, safety, welfare etc. if you want to create employment for students and working mothers then you do that within a secure environment that serves the interests of these workers - not the interests of employers.

Whether you realise it or not - you actually betray your own approach - demonstrating that the real purpose of the gig economy is to facilitate employers in sacking workers with ease - and without any legal obligations.
 

making waves

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Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,617
MARXIST OUT OF CLOSET!
You admit you found new religion in Marxism, the God that failed. Marxist/Leninist dogma cost maybe 50 million lives in China in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution thanks to Chairman Mao's pigheaded socialist fanaticism.
As for global agribusiness, technology is bringing a revolution in AI controlled machine spraying of herbicides and fertiliser that could undo damage to biodiversity in tillage. As machines move across fields,cameras on board working off extremely fast processors take a photo of each plant in the machines' path and compare it to a database of what should be the plant's stage of growth. The amount of spraying is then finely tuned and minimised. This tech is already commercial in California for lettuce. It should enjoy swift adoption because of the financial savings on fertiliser and herbicide and the improved biodiversity. Products might be marketed as a category just short of organic. Several companies in the UK are producing the AI sprayers and International Harvester is the leader AFAIK.
Like I said earlier - dragging out Maoism is so 1960s
 

making waves

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It's the so called left who are driving down wages for the bosses by their support of and pressure on government to allow unrestricted imigration
Posh boy Barrett, murphy and the generals daughter Daly have the wealth to buy homes in areas the Fugees can't.
PS. Socialism as a experiment has ended, and been judged a miserable failure.
It is still found in places due to the people not yet strong enough to give the thugs imposing it the Ceausescu treatment. North Korea, Venezuela. All the famine ridden African counties, and the third world sh1thole Cuba.
And the xenophobia comes to the surface
 

Sweet Darling

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TEXTBOOK HARD LEFT SOCIALISM
That's your description above,as if nothing has changed in capitalism since the late 19th century. The market economy is heavily regulated to protect employees and workers can organise in trade unions if they wish. When companies try to pay less than the market wage or offer inferior working conditions, they risk losing key workers to competition. A majority of workers are reasonably content with their employers.
Of course, the market economy isn't perfect but it's proved it can deliver prosperity and is vastly superior to heavy state ownership and controls of hard socialism.
When a country ends up commie. the first people that are rounded up by the thugs in charge and either shot or gulaged are the Marxists, as they are usually the one's who begin criticizing the government shouting "This is not what the Book says"
 

Patslatt1

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Like I said earlier - dragging out Maoism is so 1960s
Maoism lasted until his succesor Deng persuaded the collective leadership to abandon the communist model for capitalism in the early 1980s, with the government retaining control of public utilities and banks and investing heavily in natural resources.
 

making waves

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Maoism lasted until his succesor Deng persuaded the collective leadership to abandon the communist model for capitalism in the early 1980s, with the government retaining control of public utilities and banks and investing heavily in natural resources.
So now you're an expert on Maoism - maybe you could educate your sweet darling about it :rolleyes:

Tell us patslatt - will you be applauding frontline workers this evening at 8 o'clock - or will you still be throwing your childish whinge binge about demarcation and over paid and 'gold plated pensions?
 

Sweet Darling

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So now you're an expert on Maoism - maybe you could educate your sweet darling about it :rolleyes:

Tell us patslatt - will you be applauding frontline workers this evening at 8 o'clock - or will you still be throwing your childish whinge binge about demarcation and over paid and 'gold plated pensions?
Educate me. Name a commie country that is successful
 


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