Unnecessary qualifications creating artificial secondary teacher shortages

Patslatt1

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It is entirely possible that this is the case. Any teacher on here will suggest such. Often those with the strongest academic pedigree have the most difficulty in teaching as their expectations are so wildly off that they end up overestimating the capacity of a given student to learn effectively. It can lead to students busying themselves in other ways.



It's also just impossible to judge accurately which is why Unions would oppose such thick policies.

That and the teacher can simply beef up their numbers in order to give the impression that it's all going smoothly.



Which will lead, as it already has in most Irish schools which maintain a good degree of autonomy over hiring, a revolving door, jobs-for-the-boys approach. In my old secondary school the Irish teacher was the son of the previous principal and the history teacher the son of the former history teacher. The history teacher was superb, the Irish teacher couldn't speak Irish.



You're a fool. You know why? You are a fool because you are treating students in these schools as empirical data that can be easily modified by the right engineer.

Human beings are complex enough but teaching children is more complex again. Human interactions are notoriously difficult to quantify yet here you are swinging the cudgel of truth as if things were that simple.

You could have a teacher who excels in every field possible who encounters a class that, for whatever reason, he cannot communicate effectively with and whose results suffer as a result. There is no one-shoe-fits-all approach to teaching.

Your answer - to funnel prospective teachers into precarious employment under the blatant lie that you have the child's interests at heart - is the most bafflingly stupid proposal possible. Only some clown who has never worked a rolling, temporary contract - which exposes you to all sorts of issues financially - would suggest such an approach.

Students need above all stability. They require their teachers to be in the best possible form in order to perform at a required level. The Brits are trying this genius Malthusian policy of education and their standards have fallen through the floor. Supply teachers being contracted out like Uber drivers (another vile entreprise) to teach classes with whom they'll never develop a meaningful relationship.

People are not figures. They never will be. You should approach problems like this with consideration for that.
Rolling temporary contract enable school managers to check references of teachers' performances in a variety of classrooms. That would be a far better approach to giving permanent jobs than relying on academic credentials.
While temping is financially insecure, it is necessary for informed teacher recruitment.
Some school managers will play favourites in recruitment. It is up to the school boards to prevent that by removing managers for cronyism. It should be apparent to informed parents if there is cronyism and they should move their children to another school.
 


SweenyTodd

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I know of a woman with a Ph. D, not in education studies, who is teaching in Donegal as a B grade PP teacher.
 

making waves

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The figures in the link easily prove Hanushek right. Have you read it?
Except that - as I have already demonstrated - Hanushek's use of data has been rightly criticised as being selective and biased to back up his false arguments.
 

making waves

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Rolling temporary contract enable school managers to check references of teachers' performances in a variety of classrooms. That would be a far better approach to giving permanent jobs than relying on academic credentials.
While temping is financially insecure, it is necessary for informed teacher recruitment.
Some school managers will play favourites in recruitment. It is up to the school boards to prevent that by removing managers for cronyism. It should be apparent to informed parents if there is cronyism and they should move their children to another school.
There are no teachers appointed to permanent contracts in Ireland - many work for years on fixed term contracts - often for more than ten years. It is also clear that you have zero idea how the recruitment process works in Irish education.
 

SweenyTodd

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There are no teachers appointed to permanent contracts in Ireland - many work for years on fixed term contracts - often for more than ten years. It is also clear that you have zero idea how the recruitment process works in Irish education.
There are alos lots of FET teachers who are now being asked to teach in VECs because of the apparent shortage of Maths teachers.
 

Patslatt1

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Except that - as I have already demonstrated - Hanushek's use of data has been rightly criticised as being selective and biased to back up his false arguments.
Vested interests always go into denial over embarrassing statistics and attack the author instead of the arguments.
 

Patslatt1

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There are no teachers appointed to permanent contracts in Ireland - many work for years on fixed term contracts - often for more than ten years. It is also clear that you have zero idea how the recruitment process works in Irish education.
The point is that starting out, teachers work short term as temps until they secure permanent positions. If the jobs aren't permanent, why were only handfuls dismissed from jobs over decades?
 

making waves

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Vested interests always go into denial over embarrassing statistics and attack the author instead of the arguments.
And Hanushek has a vested interest in distorting the data to fit with his right-wing agenda.

The point is that starting out, teachers work short term as temps until they secure permanent positions. If the jobs aren't permanent, why were only handfuls dismissed from jobs over decades?
Teachers leave schools all the time - this year in my school five teachers will not be returning to the school in September. In the past week alone I was talking to a teacher who has been teaching for 13 years and doesn't have a permanent contract - and another teacher who has been six years in the one school and doesn't have a permanent contract (and that is just two of dozens of examples I am personally aware of)

The idea that teachers walk out of college into a permanent job is a myth promoted by individuals like you who have an anti- public sector agenda.
 

APettigrew92

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Rolling temporary contract enable school managers to check references of teachers' performances in a variety of classrooms. That would be a far better approach to giving permanent jobs than relying on academic credentials.
While temping is financially insecure, it is necessary for informed teacher recruitment.
Some school managers will play favourites in recruitment. It is up to the school boards to prevent that by removing managers for cronyism. It should be apparent to informed parents if there is cronyism and they should move their children to another school.
So the established teacher training schools are therefore insufficient and unable to train teachers effectively?

Teachers have never had better training yet apparently they're now the least qualified for jobs that people used to walk into on the back of a degree or, in some extreme cases, a Leaving Certificate?

Show me any empirical data that temp teachers are more productive than their financially secure colleagues. No such data exists. It is a fantasy.

Your line about parents "moving schools if there is cronyism in the school" is as naive and maddening a comment as you'll find on here.

There will always be preferential treatment. Temp contracts engender this, they make it that much easier to keep jobs open for prospective nepotism candidates while the Principals can parrot on about the "necessity" of temporary teachers.

Necessary enough to work but not necessary enough to receive the same benefits as their colleagues who in most cases never spent more than three or four years studying without the Masters in Education thrown in.
 

Baron von Biffo

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So the established teacher training schools are therefore insufficient and unable to train teachers effectively?

Teachers have never had better training yet apparently they're now the least qualified for jobs that people used to walk into on the back of a degree or, in some extreme cases, a Leaving Certificate?

Show me any empirical data that temp teachers are more productive than their financially secure colleagues. No such data exists. It is a fantasy.

Your line about parents "moving schools if there is cronyism in the school" is as naive and maddening a comment as you'll find on here.

There will always be preferential treatment. Temp contracts engender this, they make it that much easier to keep jobs open for prospective nepotism candidates while the Principals can parrot on about the "necessity" of temporary teachers.

Necessary enough to work but not necessary enough to receive the same benefits as their colleagues who in most cases never spent more than three or four years studying without the Masters in Education thrown in.
You're wasting your time asking Pat for facts or data. He's solidly opposed to both. He had a little hissy fit with me a while back when I used them to give the lie to one of his nonsense claims. Apparently anyone who uses facts has an 'engineers mind'.

But don't worry, soon now he'll be posting about the conversation he had with an expert who'll have told him that he's absolutely correct and you, with your silly 'facts' are wrong.
 

Patslatt1

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And Hanushek has a vested interest in distorting the data to fit with his right-wing agenda.


Teachers leave schools all the time - this year in my school five teachers will not be returning to the school in September. In the past week alone I was talking to a teacher who has been teaching for 13 years and doesn't have a permanent contract - and another teacher who has been six years in the one school and doesn't have a permanent contract (and that is just two of dozens of examples I am personally aware of)

The idea that teachers walk out of college into a permanent job is a myth promoted by individuals like you who have an anti- public sector agenda.
Recent research in the UK supports Hanushek on unnecessary teacher training days.

The fact that teachers spent years working is in itself a contract. A contract in common law need not be in writing. Unless they are transferring to other schools, they could sue for recognition of contract rights.
 

Patslatt1

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So the established teacher training schools are therefore insufficient and unable to train teachers effectively?

Teachers have never had better training yet apparently they're now the least qualified for jobs that people used to walk into on the back of a degree or, in some extreme cases, a Leaving Certificate?

Show me any empirical data that temp teachers are more productive than their financially secure colleagues. No such data exists. It is a fantasy.

Your line about parents "moving schools if there is cronyism in the school" is as naive and maddening a comment as you'll find on here.

There will always be preferential treatment. Temp contracts engender this, they make it that much easier to keep jobs open for prospective nepotism candidates while the Principals can parrot on about the "necessity" of temporary teachers.

Necessary enough to work but not necessary enough to receive the same benefits as their colleagues who in most cases never spent more than three or four years studying without the Masters in Education thrown in.
You haven't studied the stats in the link on lack of improvement in educational achievement in the US despite big spending increases over decades. UK research supports this, finding that teacher training days are unproductive.
Your whole attitude is emotional,not matter of fact.
 
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Patslatt1

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You're wasting your time asking Pat for facts or data. He's solidly opposed to both. He had a little hissy fit with me a while back when I used them to give the lie to one of his nonsense claims. Apparently anyone who uses facts has an 'engineers mind'.

But don't worry, soon now he'll be posting about the conversation he had with an expert who'll have told him that he's absolutely correct and you, with your silly 'facts' are wrong.
Baron von Bullsander!
 

making waves

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The fact that teachers spent years working is in itself a contract. A contract in common law need not be in writing. Unless they are transferring to other schools, they could sue for recognition of contract rights.
You are seriously delusional - which isn't really a surprise.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Recent research in the UK supports Hanushek on unnecessary teacher training days.

The fact that teachers spent years working is in itself a contract. A contract in common law need not be in writing. Unless they are transferring to other schools, they could sue for recognition of contract rights.
Teachers don't enjoy the same protections as other workers. They can even be sacked if they become pregnant in circumstances that their employers don't approve of.
 

Patslatt1

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Teachers don't enjoy the same protections as other workers. They can even be sacked if they become pregnant in circumstances that their employers don't approve of.
The fact that here and the UK only tiny numbers of teachers have been sacked over decades contradicts your bullsand.
 


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