Unskilled foreign workers cost the state - fact or fiction?

Disillusioned democrat

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There's a lot of talk at the moment about the economic of "value" foreign immigrant workers and how they're a huge benefit to the country.

I don't actually understand that and would challenge that - as long as there's ANY unemployment - every unskilled foreign worker is costing the state effectively the difference between his/her tax (probably negligible) and the cost of social welfare for an unemployed native - that could be €10k a year.

That's not considering the impact on the cost of accommodation and the impact shortages have had on the rent allowance budget, etc.

Unskilled migrant labour benefits employers certainly as they get minimum wage labour on demand at any location, but the government are subsidizing it by effectively paying Irish people NOT to work.

Is that just my jaundiced view or is this really a state sanctioned rip-off?
 
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ger12

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Unskilled eh. Why didn't you include skilled?
 

ruserious

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You have to question why someone would start a thread on Furriners takin' our jerbs at 10:20am on a Monday morning.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Unskilled eh. Why didn't you include skilled?
Because in fairness once you get to the last 6% unemployed there's not likely to be a large cohort of skilled resources and the skilled ones are likely to be in higher paying roles and paying more tax.
 

blinding

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Its surprising that if immigrants are so good that there isn’t some sort of quota system to get them into the Dail . 15/20% would be about the same as in the general work force .
The Servants of the people must live in the same circumstance as their paymasters . Anything else would be totally unfair .

The same should be done with media and press organisations . They cannot be pontificating about the situation others find themselves and be unwilling to have the same situation for themselves .

This kind of hypocrisy will lead to a dangerous situation if it is not rectified .
 

Disillusioned democrat

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You have to question why someone would start a thread on Furriners takin' our jerbs at 10:20am on a Monday morning.
Or you could give your opinion on the impact.

The actual reason it entered my head was thinking thru Varadkar's assertion that somehow Ireland owes more to migrants than other countries because, well - we had a famine, see??

Now the country is broke and still living on borrowed money - albeit it less than 5 years ago, but we're hailing immigrant workers as the solution to our problems....BUT we still have unemployed people living off the state saying they can't get a job. If there's a job that a non-native is doing where there's a native on the dole, then that's costing the state.
 

blinding

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With these sort of reports /surveys and so on it is very important to find out who is paying for it and what would be their preferred outcome .

He who pays the piper calls the tune . Its good business to get a result that the person paying likes . Its good business if you want more business from that source .

Reports / surveys and the like can be very suspect depending on who is paying for them .

E.G. Carrot supplier commissions report that finds carrots are good for the horn ? ? ?
 

PO'Neill

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There's a lot of talk at the moment about the economic "value" foreign immigrant workers and how they're a huge benefit to the country.

I don't actually understand that and would challenge that - as long as there's ANY unemployment - every unskilled foreign worker is costing the state effectively the difference between his/her tax (probably negligible) and the cost of social welfare for an unemployed native - that could be €10k a year.

That's not considering the impact on the cost of accommodation and the impact shortages have had on the rent allowance budget, etc.

Unskilled migrant labour benefits employers certainly as they get minimum wage labour on demand at any location, but the government are subsidizing it by effectively paying Irish people NOT to work.

Is that just my jaundiced view or is this really a state sanctioned rip-off?
Many Irish workers have to turn to social welfare assistance because they are not getting enough hours a week thanks to zero hour contracts, temporary contracts, part time contracts, bogus self employment contracts etc in Tesco, hotels, construction and so on. Therefore it's state subsiding of cheap labor for the benefit of the spoofers and chancers who have free reign to do so.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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This still doesn't do the very basic maths - it costs over €10k to keep someone on the dole even if there's no rent allowance of social housing involved.

If a native Irish "worker" is unable to find a job because there is a non-native worker in the job then that cost has to be picked up by the state. It's a hidden cost and never discussed, but it's there, unless I'm missing something.
 

hammer

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Look it.

We can start these threads every week if you wish.

Nothing is going to change unless we elect SF IRA with an overall majority.

That aint going to happen for another 10000 years.
 

Who is John Galt?

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I have some work coming up soon that requires the use of two good, fit manual labourers.
The working conditions will be wet and dirty, but not dangerously so, and I'll do all I can to ameliorate the conditions.
Two poles, living locally, have agreed to take on this three-week job for 1.5 times the minimum wage, plus all statuary contributions.
I will supply transport to and from the site, bottled water and a prepared mid day meal.
All tools, special waterproof clothing and footwear will also be supplied by me.
I have hired these two men before and they are excellent workers.
Do any Irish want to apply?
 

blinding

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I have some work coming up soon that requires the use of two good, fit manual labourers.
The working conditions will be wet and dirty, but not dangerously so, and I'll do all I can to ameliorate the conditions.
Two poles, living locally, have agreed to take on this three-week job for 1.5 times the minimum wage, plus all statuary contributions.
I will supply transport to and from the site, bottled water and a prepared mid day meal.
All tools, special waterproof clothing and footwear will also be supplied by me.
I have hired these two men before and they are excellent workers.
Do any Irish want to apply?
Perhaps everyone is not as nice /good as you .

We would also need to talk to some of your employees past and present to see if you are what you say you are .

Some Poster on a website said this or that isn’t exactly very scientific .
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I have some work coming up soon that requires the use of two good, fit manual labourers.
The working conditions will be wet and dirty, but not dangerously so, and I'll do all I can to ameliorate the conditions.
Two poles, living locally, have agreed to take on this three-week job for 1.5 times the minimum wage, plus all statuary contributions.
I will supply transport to and from the site, bottled water and a prepared mid day meal.
All tools, special waterproof clothing and footwear will also be supplied by me.
I have hired these two men before and they are excellent workers.
Do any Irish want to apply?
3 weeks isn't a job, to be honest - is a nixer.

So these Polish lads are "self-employed"? Very precarious lifestyle, but as another poster mentioned - a highly subsidized (by the tax payer) workforce.
 

SamsonS

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There's a lot of talk at the moment about the economic "value" foreign immigrant workers and how they're a huge benefit to the country.

I don't actually understand that and would challenge that - as long as there's ANY unemployment - every unskilled foreign worker is costing the state effectively the difference between his/her tax (probably negligible) and the cost of social welfare for an unemployed native - that could be €10k a year.

That's not considering the impact on the cost of accommodation and the impact shortages have had on the rent allowance budget, etc.

Unskilled migrant labour benefits employers certainly as they get minimum wage labour on demand at any location, but the government are subsidizing it by effectively paying Irish people NOT to work.

Is that just my jaundiced view or is this really a state sanctioned rip-off?
I suppose you'd have to ask at what % of people are we at full employment. Even taking a figure of say 6%, within that sectors, travelling community , or some local authority estates will have figures way in excess of that and even in places where employment opportunities are not far away.

If your interested have a look at this, based on census.
https://maps.pobal.ie/

So for example in parts of Darndale you have male unemployment rates close to 50%, and female unemployment not far behind.

Close enough to the city centre , Ballybough, you have something similar.

Taking Ballybough, You could question why we would have some places with unemployment that high yet are close enough to places where we are struggling to fill jobs, and by extension having to get people to come in from abroad to fill them.
 

bormotello

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Dont forget cost pensions. Nearly everybody I know fro EE countries are planning to return back as soon as they earn pensions here and relax with Irish pensions in low cost eastern European countries
 

robut

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What I still dont get .. and yes we have had this tussle here before via how one views statistics.

We are told we have a well educated workforce but yet we apparently have a huge skills gap particularly in IT.

Amazon's 4,000-jobs plan for Ireland may be under threat

Amazon has warned its plan to create 4,000 jobs in Ireland could be under threat over poor government planning.

However, the company has cited a "number of concerns" including planning permission, energy supply and the skill level of graduates which may cast doubt on the expansion plans.
So it looks like we have a well educated workforce BUT in the wrong areas for the work in Ireland?

'Brain drain': 25,000 graduates left Ireland to work abroad in 12 months

On the ground for a good while I am hearing that many of the IT jobs in likes of Google, Facebook and many of the other software companies here are being taken up by workers from abroad WHO HAVE THE NECESSARY SKILLS? OR that these companies have to advertise abroad to fill the positions which cannot be filled by Irish indigenous workers due to skills gap? Case in point last year came to me via a large 3D film company in Ireland who had to fill from abroad for 3D Modellers, texturers, Animators, Post proc etc .. couldnt find the skills amongst Irish workers.

So ... Where are the people who were on the dole post crash getting their jobs now that we are down to less than 6%?

Is it that the Irish who stay are now on low pay jobs due to lack of required skills and that the necessary SKILLED workers from abroad are on the higher paid jobs here? Is that sustainable?

Im not sure how we will square this skills mismatch .. particularly for the current generations out of college or the 40 50 somethings who might find it difficult to get work, particularly in IT .. Perception in IT is you need to be a 20 something young person?

Will we have a large traunch of "unskilled / wrongly skilled" indigenous Irish workers left behind? And is this a sacrifice we just have to bear?
 
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Sync

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There's a lot of talk at the moment about the economic "value" foreign immigrant workers and how they're a huge benefit to the country.

I don't actually understand that and would challenge that - as long as there's ANY unemployment - every unskilled foreign worker is costing the state effectively the difference between his/her tax (probably negligible) and the cost of social welfare for an unemployed native - that could be €10k a year.

That's not considering the impact on the cost of accommodation and the impact shortages have had on the rent allowance budget, etc.

Unskilled migrant labour benefits employers certainly as they get minimum wage labour on demand at any location, but the government are subsidizing it by effectively paying Irish people NOT to work.

Is that just my jaundiced view or is this really a state sanctioned rip-off?
It’s assuming that everyone who’s left claiming unemployment is a: actually looking b: looking for minimum wage roles with no prospects c: qualified for the mushroom picking job the farmers looking to hire for.

So you’re left with a: being far more prescriptive towards the unemployed in forcing them to take available roles or B: raising the minimum wage to attract them or c:banning furners which could conceivably cause wages to increase in line with demand for a short time.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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It’s assuming that everyone who’s left claiming unemployment is a: actually looking b: looking for minimum wage roles with no prospects c: qualified for the mushroom picking job the farmers looking to hire for.

So you’re left with a: being far more prescriptive towards the unemployed in forcing them to take available roles or B: raising the minimum wage to attract them or c:banning furners which could conceivably cause wages to increase in line with demand for a short time.
I'm a big fan of "a" - then when there's no one on the dole and there's still jobs to fill, let's regulate the number of foreign migrant workers. Let's also make sure that under the Ts & Cs of their employment in Ireland that they have no long term pension entitlements that will further cripple the country in 20 years.
 


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