Upcoming Referenda and the slow lingering Death of Bunreacht na hEireann v1.0

hollandia

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We have had the referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment of the Constitution passed by a roughly 2 to 1 majority in the last few weeks. This has been a slow process since its inclusion in Bunreacht in 1983, via rejection of the 12th amendment in 1992, the adoption of the 13th and 14th amendment (also 1992) to remove barriers to travelling for and the obtaining/distribution of information regarding termination of pregnancy.

We may feel somewhat secular, liberal and modern in light of the removal of the eighth amendment, and in truth we are moving in that direction, but the influence of Christianity - and Catholicism in particular - are still writ large throughout the current document. It is thought – though it cannot be certain – that due to the secrecy that De Valera maintained around the drafting process, that this influence came through submissions from a Fr. Edward Cahill SJ, and from the contemporary eminence grise the then Fr. John Charles McQuaid, who is reputed to have deluged the process with submissions.

Let us examine the influence of the church on this most important of documents.
Firstly, we have the preamble:

In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.


So, before the document has even begun, we have ceded authority to God, and by referencing the trinity, the Christian God.

Article 41 in its original form specifically bars divorce – the stated position of the RCC. This took until 1995 to remove, condemning thousands of people to remain in broken marriages.

The children’s rights amendment, we find was challenged on a spurious basis by the same woman who is now challenging the outcome of the repeal referendum, delaying its imposition for the guts of three years. So we can see that the lunatic fringe of Catholicism is trying its damnedest to hold back the tide of the secularisation of the state.

In October, we will have three referenda at once – a proposed amendment to the clause dealing with the position of women in the home, a proposed amendement to remove the offense of blasphemy (pretty much a done deal as this is largely covered by hate speech law) and will prevent such things as the spurious investigation of Stephen Fry. Finally there will be referendum on directly elected mayors. The first two of these represent a further stepping away from the church of the state.

Still, there is much to do. We need to divest the churches from their postions of power an influence within Education and Health, where untold abuses have taken place, and the stench of corruption remains around the findings of historical enquiries.

This is not to do down the church, which in my opinion has a valuable role to play in society, but in a modern democracy, it has no formal role in the running of the state.

Is it time to bite the bullet, and completely reform Bunreacht na hEireann, rather than this drip, drip, drip of reform?

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland_(original_text)

https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/DOT/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/Constitution_of_Ireland_-_Bunreacht_na_hÉireann.html
 


statsman

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
55,055
We have had the referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment of the Constitution passed by a roughly 2 to 1 majority in the last few weeks. This has been a slow process since its inclusion in Bunreacht in 1983, via rejection of the 12th amendment in 1992, the adoption of the 13th and 14th amendment (also 1992) to remove barriers to travelling for and the obtaining/distribution of information regarding termination of pregnancy.

We may feel somewhat secular, liberal and modern in light of the removal of the eighth amendment, and in truth we are moving in that direction, but the influence of Christianity - and Catholicism in particular - are still writ large throughout the current document. It is thought – though it cannot be certain – that due to the secrecy that De Valera maintained around the drafting process, that this influence came through submissions from a Fr. Edward Cahill SJ, and from the contemporary eminence grise the then Fr. John Charles McQuaid, who is reputed to have deluged the process with submissions.

Let us examine the influence of the church on this most important of documents.
Firstly, we have the preamble:

In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.


So, before the document has even begun, we have ceded authority to God, and by referencing the trinity, the Christian God.

Article 41 in its original form specifically bars divorce – the stated position of the RCC. This took until 1995 to remove, condemning thousands of people to remain in broken marriages.

The children’s rights amendment, we find was challenged on a spurious basis by the same woman who is now challenging the outcome of the repeal referendum, delaying its imposition for the guts of three years. So we can see that the lunatic fringe of Catholicism is trying its damnedest to hold back the tide of the secularisation of the state.

In October, we will have three referenda at once – a proposed amendment to the clause dealing with the position of women in the home, a proposed amendement to remove the offense of blasphemy (pretty much a done deal as this is largely covered by hate speech law) and will prevent such things as the spurious investigation of Stephen Fry. Finally there will be referendum on directly elected mayors. The first two of these represent a further stepping away from the church of the state.

Still, there is much to do. We need to divest the churches from their postions of power an influence within Education and Health, where untold abuses have taken place, and the stench of corruption remains around the findings of historical enquiries.

This is not to do down the church, which in my opinion has a valuable role to play in society, but in a modern democracy, it has no formal role in the running of the state.

Is it time to bite the bullet, and completely reform Bunreacht na hEireann, rather than this drip, drip, drip of reform?

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland_(original_text)

https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/DOT/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/Constitution_of_Ireland_-_Bunreacht_na_hÉireann.html
That I may life to see Ireland become a proper secular republic at last.


Good OP, BTW.
 

GDPR

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217,782
The preamble needs to go. Its quite as bad as the key constitutional statute in the UK known as the 39 Articles, which begins:

"Being by God's Ordinance, according to Our just Title, Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church, within these Our Dominions, We hold it most agreeable to this Our Kingly Office, and Our own religious zeal, to conserve and maintain the Church committed to Our Charge, in Unity of true Religion, and in the Bond of Peace ... We have therefore, upon mature Deliberation, and with the Advice of so many of Our Bishops as might conveniently be called together, thought fit to make this Declaration following ... That We are Supreme Governor of the Church of England ... "
 

hollandia

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Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
30,149
The preamble needs to go. Its quite as bad as the key constitutional statute in the UK known as the 39 Articles, which begins:

"Being by God's Ordinance, according to Our just Title, Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church, within these Our Dominions, We hold it most agreeable to this Our Kingly Office, and Our own religious zeal, to conserve and maintain the Church committed to Our Charge, in Unity of true Religion, and in the Bond of Peace ... We have therefore, upon mature Deliberation, and with the Advice of so many of Our Bishops as might conveniently be called together, thought fit to make this Declaration following ... That We are Supreme Governor of the Church of England ... "
An excellent comparison. And the ramifications of those 39 articles are still felt today.
 

between the bridges

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Messages
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We have had the referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment of the Constitution passed by a roughly 2 to 1 majority in the last few weeks. This has been a slow process since its inclusion in Bunreacht in 1983, via rejection of the 12th amendment in 1992, the adoption of the 13th and 14th amendment (also 1992) to remove barriers to travelling for and the obtaining/distribution of information regarding termination of pregnancy.

We may feel somewhat secular, liberal and modern in light of the removal of the eighth amendment, and in truth we are moving in that direction, but the influence of Christianity - and Catholicism in particular - are still writ large throughout the current document. It is thought – though it cannot be certain – that due to the secrecy that De Valera maintained around the drafting process, that this influence came through submissions from a Fr. Edward Cahill SJ, and from the contemporary eminence grise the then Fr. John Charles McQuaid, who is reputed to have deluged the process with submissions.

Let us examine the influence of the church on this most important of documents.
Firstly, we have the preamble:

In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.


So, before the document has even begun, we have ceded authority to God, and by referencing the trinity, the Christian God.

Article 41 in its original form specifically bars divorce – the stated position of the RCC. This took until 1995 to remove, condemning thousands of people to remain in broken marriages.

The children’s rights amendment, we find was challenged on a spurious basis by the same woman who is now challenging the outcome of the repeal referendum, delaying its imposition for the guts of three years. So we can see that the lunatic fringe of Catholicism is trying its damnedest to hold back the tide of the secularisation of the state.

In October, we will have three referenda at once – a proposed amendment to the clause dealing with the position of women in the home, a proposed amendement to remove the offense of blasphemy (pretty much a done deal as this is largely covered by hate speech law) and will prevent such things as the spurious investigation of Stephen Fry. Finally there will be referendum on directly elected mayors. The first two of these represent a further stepping away from the church of the state.

Still, there is much to do. We need to divest the churches from their postions of power an influence within Education and Health, where untold abuses have taken place, and the stench of corruption remains around the findings of historical enquiries.

This is not to do down the church, which in my opinion has a valuable role to play in society, but in a modern democracy, it has no formal role in the running of the state.

Is it time to bite the bullet, and completely reform Bunreacht na hEireann, rather than this drip, drip, drip of reform?

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland_(original_text)

https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/DOT/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/Constitution_of_Ireland_-_Bunreacht_na_hÉireann.html

I hear yer a mexicant now holls...
 

hollandia

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Messages
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As I argued in an OP over 6 years ago now, the problems predate Bunreacht, with the 1916 proclamation being saturated in god and blood and soil nationalism.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/182337-1916-proclamation-personal-view.html
I would agree, and that was common around that period of time. It was only really WW1 that put an end to the Divine Right of Kings. Indeed, even the great republic that is the USA still states "In God we Trust".

I would be very surprised if there are any modern republicans (of whatever hue) that subscribe to this God business in either the proclamation or Bunreacht.
 

GDPR

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Messages
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I welcome the Liberal scum pushing on to the limit. It will make the Nationalist Movement all the stronger and more radical. Liberalism must be wiped from the face of the earth. Hunted down and liquidated no matter where is rears its brain diseased head - it cannot be allowed to exist even in ignorant backwaters like Ireland.
 

GDPR

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Messages
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I would agree, and that was common around that period of time. It was only really WW1 that put an end to the Divine Right of Kings. Indeed, even the great republic that is the USA still states "In God we Trust".

I would be very surprised if there are any modern republicans (of whatever hue) that subscribe to this God business in either the proclamation or Bunreacht.
There isnt one single reference anywhere to God in the US constitution. "In God We Trust" appears on the currency (serving Mammon) and was adopted as an alternative to the official motto of the US - E Pluribus Unum - in 1956. Some would say its been all down hill since then.

Given the fact you cant trust American banks, I suppose you might as well trust God.
 

statsman

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Messages
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I would agree, and that was common around that period of time. It was only really WW1 that put an end to the Divine Right of Kings. Indeed, even the great republic that is the USA still states "In God we Trust".

I would be very surprised if there are any modern republicans (of whatever hue) that subscribe to this God business in either the proclamation or Bunreacht.
Prepare to be surprised, so.
 

Buchaill Dana

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I welcome the Liberal scum pushing on to the limit. It will make the Nationalist Movement all the stronger and more radical. Liberalism must be wiped from the face of the earth. Hunted down and liquidated no matter where is rears its brain diseased head - it cannot be allowed to exist even in ignorant backwaters like Ireland.
Hold up. You say Ireland is an ignorant backwater but want to liquidate anyone who wants to deal with that? Even by your standards this is arsegravy
 

WTTR

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www.johnfhiggins.eu
This OP is just pure shocking. There is no gun to anybody's head. Why are we happy to continue legislating our way to oblivion?

The European Union is a secular institution that has discarded all the trappings of a religious flavour.

This has resulted in basic human rights, based on universal accepted principles of existence, being lost to the most defenceless category of the human race.

The European Union is becoming an area of black matter, sucking the life out of the human race.

It is a hole that will also suck the Irish state into oblivion.

What's the use, in arguing like this,

With a nation that has attempted to pass laws to kill the unborn?

Hopefully, the EU gets some sense of what is happening to its community and put a stop to this Irish madness.

We are going in with eyes wide open, but somehow our brains are hardwired to accept what is happening.

I guess the Jews entered the gas chambers, in a similar comatose state?
 
Last edited:

Notachipanoaktree

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We have had the referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment of the Constitution passed by a roughly 2 to 1 majority in the last few weeks. This has been a slow process since its inclusion in Bunreacht in 1983, via rejection of the 12th amendment in 1992, the adoption of the 13th and 14th amendment (also 1992) to remove barriers to travelling for and the obtaining/distribution of information regarding termination of pregnancy.

]
Absolutely. Both countries need to clean out their constitutions. But who would you trust to do the cleaning. 'Cos the old powers that be are real saints compared to those who would be king.

Brest just leave everything alone. Another holocaust would be a tragedy and unforgivabl
e.
 

Mitsui2

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Hold up. You say Ireland is an ignorant backwater but want to liquidate anyone who wants to deal with that? Even by your standards this is arsegravy
On a potentially interesting thread such as this one people really need to make a point of not feeding the troll, or at least not quoting the cretin!
 


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