Uplands Access in Ireland.

Ramon Mercadar

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How so?

People expect access to other people's property for no payment!
In Britain its legal to shoot farmers if they worry you. Peasants are kept in their place.
 


Orbit v2

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Well there was a process of land reform that started in 19th century and continued into the 20th century post-independence. Land was more or less forcibly taken from one group of people and given to others. Some interesting things happened, like for example, the land commission holding on to mineral rights for the state. I suspect that if tourism and an appreciation for walking in the country-side existed back then, then some provision for access to the country-side would have been included also, and we would have it now, like they do in England, and nobody would be too bothered about it.
People expect access to other people's property for no payment!
In some situations yes - eg. public roads. Prior to public roads, you might have to pay tolls to each land owner whose land you crossed when traveling from A to B. Rights of way were eventually established in law giving the state the right to buld and maintain roads for the common good.

I'm not saying we should have a general right to roam except in uplands. So, uplands are a kind of right of way situation where people have traditionally been able to access them, and ownership often being tenuous. There's nothing magic or sacred about property rights imo. The state can legislate for any outcome seen to be desirable for the common good.
 

Glanshanacuirp

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Well there was a process of land reform that started in 19th century and continued into the 20th century post-independence. Land was more or less forcibly taken from one group of people and given to others. Some interesting things happened, like for example, the land commission holding on to mineral rights for the state. I suspect that if tourism and an appreciation for walking in the country-side existed back then, then some provision for access to the country-side would have been included also, and we would have it now, like they do in England, and nobody would be too bothered about it.
The Supreme Court decided that there must be some act of dedication of a right of way for one to exist!
In some situations yes - eg. public roads. Prior to public roads, you might have to pay tolls to each land owner whose land you crossed when traveling from A to B. Rights of way were eventually established in law giving the state the right to buld and maintain roads for the common good.

I'm not saying we should have a general right to roam except in uplands. So, uplands are a kind of right of way situation where people have traditionally been able to access them, and ownership often being tenuous. There's nothing magic or sacred about property rights imo. The state can legislate for any outcome seen to be desirable for the common good.
 

Glanshanacuirp

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Well there was a process of land reform that started in 19th century and continued into the 20th century post-independence. Land was more or less forcibly taken from one group of people and given to others. Some interesting things happened, like for example, the land commission holding on to mineral rights for the state. I suspect that if tourism and an appreciation for walking in the country-side existed back then, then some provision for access to the country-side would have been included also, and we would have it now, like they do in England, and nobody would be too bothered about it.

In some situations yes - eg. public roads. Prior to public roads, you might have to pay tolls to each land owner whose land you crossed when traveling from A to B. Rights of way were eventually established in law giving the state the right to buld and maintain roads for the common good.

I'm not saying we should have a general right to roam except in uplands. So, uplands are a kind of right of way situation where people have traditionally been able to access them, and ownership often being tenuous. There's nothing magic or sacred about property rights imo. The state can legislate for any outcome seen to be desirable for the common good.
The Supreme Court confirmed that there must be some act of dedication for a right of way to exist!
 

Orbit v2

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The Supreme Court confirmed that there must be some act of dedication for a right of way to exist!
Yes, though what constitutes an act of dedication, is not at all clear in general. Irish law on rights of way is the same as what applied in England about a century ago afaik. The English have moved on though. Cases long forgotten in England were dredged up in order to determine the recent Lissadell case. It's a ludicrous situation. As far as I know, there hasn't been a single piece of legislation enacted on the subject since independence. Like I said, all we've done is replaced one set of landlords with a different one.
 

Glanshanacuirp

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Yes, though what constitutes an act of dedication, is not at all clear in general. Irish law on rights of way is the same as what applied in England about a century ago. The English have moved on though. Cases long forgotten in England were dredged up in order to determine the recent Lissadell case. It's a ludicrous situation. As far as I know, there hasn't been a single piece of legislation enacted on the subject since independence. Like I said, all we've done is replaced one set of landlords with a different one.
How do you enact legislation to create rights of way that trample on property rights?
 

Glanshanacuirp

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Perhaps the State could acquire access by Compulsory Purchase! As I understand matters Ramblers demand access as a right.

If some one can come and enjoy my high amenity land for free who would possible come and pay me for it?

High amenity land has a value. Admitting everyone for free as of right destroys that monetary value.
 

Orbit v2

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At the end of the day, I think people just want an agreement rather than "rights" being created. They are likely to be sceptical of claims about extracting "value" from high amenity uplands. Compensation for maintenance etc would be a different story. At the end of the day, we live in a democracy and the influence of what's been happening in other countries will eventually have some effect here too.
 

Glanshanacuirp

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I accept that people can look at high amenity land for nothing but entering it for a ramble is a different matter!
 

GDPR

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Yes, though what constitutes an act of dedication, is not at all clear in general. Irish law on rights of way is the same as what applied in England about a century ago afaik. The English have moved on though. Cases long forgotten in England were dredged up in order to determine the recent Lissadell case. It's a ludicrous situation. As far as I know, there hasn't been a single piece of legislation enacted on the subject since independence. Like I said, all we've done is replaced one set of landlords with a different one.
There's been much more legislation in Britain - it's a real live issue. You can access certain land across Britain without having to use paths. This land is known as ‘open access land’ or ‘access land’. Your right to access this land is called the right, or freedom, to roam.

Access land includes mountain, moor, heath, down and registered common land.

If you're in a particular area, you can check up open access land on the website or buy cheap maps from the local Tourist Office which will tell you where it is, and also what you are not allowed to do on the land.
 

TheField

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I accept that people can look at high amenity land for nothing but entering it for a ramble is a different matter!
Ah yes, the 'you can look, but you better not touch' mentality. And sure, isn't that good enough for yous, you worthless landless gob************************es etc.
 

shiel

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Is access to rural uplands any different to access to the gated communities in urban areas?
 

Glanshanacuirp

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Ah yes, the 'you can look, but you better not touch' mentality. And sure, isn't that good enough for yous, you worthless landless gob************************es etc.
If everyone has access to land for free it makes it practically worthless. Who would pay to buy such Land?
 

Round tower

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Farmers get paid enough with EU handouts.

Time for a farmer cull. They could be replaced with immigrants, if their land was flooded they would see it as an opportunity and plant rice.[

What happens if there is a gate on the land, there is cattle on the land, the farmer closes the gate in the evening, people walks on the land and leaves the gate open. The cattle gets out on the public road, causes accident, who is responsible.
 

publicrealm

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I'm a keen walker - in the mountains each weekend.

But I wouldn't allow people like me walk across my farm. It's my farm.

Even on the mountain tops I find junk left by arseholes.

Labour remind me of the old 'socialism' joke - if I have two cars you can have one - wow; if I have two houses you can have one - wow; what if you had two coats? Eff off - I HAVE two coats!
 


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