US Israel-Palestine policy



owedtojoy

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It's hard to see how Ilhan will get her resolution passed.

The Zionist lobby is too powerful.
It is all part of the (Gandhi) “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” ... process.

Recently, I saw video footage of a freshman Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi on a Washington Gay Rights March in 1987. Who gave Gay Rights a snowball's chance in hell during the Reagan era?

I hope someone reminds Pelosi of those days - who predicted then Pelosi would be one of the most influential Democratic politicians of her generation?
 
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Dame_Enda

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A horrible new resolution condemning BDS is going through a House Committee. Heated exchanges between Rep. Ilhan Omar and Rep Ted Deutsch, reflecting the Democratic divisions over Israel-Palestine.


Meanwhile Kenneth Marcus, the Trump admins DOJ head of the civil rights section and a pro-Israel activist before taking office, says the IHRA definition of anti semitism is now in force. He has reopened a debunked investigation into anti semitism at a university that ended after three years in 2014 with exoneration under the Obama admin. Also New Jersey is trying to pass a law to turn teachers into censors of criticism of Israel. The NJ law would define criticising Israel's human rights record as anti semitism.
 
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james toney

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When the right wing,extremists,and zionists present Trump as an enemy of anti-semitism, it goes beyond hypocrisy.....his bigoted attack on four congresswomen of color has nothing to do with fighting anti-semitism.
 

Clanrickard

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If rich guys giving money to politicians is free speech (see the Citizens United SCOTUS decision), then withholding your custom is a valued right also.

Per the text, the resolution:


Expect Trump to crank up the hate and fury. He hates being defied by sassy young women, and by old black guys.
More antisemitism from Omar. A thoroughly odious hateful bitch.
 

owedtojoy

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A horrible new resolution condemning BDS is going through a House Committee. Heated exchanges between Rep. Ilhan Omar and Rep Ted Deutsch, reflecting the Democratic divisions over Israel-Palestine.


Meanwhile Kenneth Marcus, the Trump admins DOJ head of the civil rights section and a pro-Israel activist before taking office, says the IHRA definition of anti semitism is now in force. He has reopened a debunked investigation into anti semitism at a university that ended after three years in 2014 with exoneration under the Obama admin. Also New Jersey is trying to pass a law to turn teachers into censors of criticism of Israel. The NJ law would define criticising Israel's human rights record as anti semitism.
 

owedtojoy

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Manifestations [of anti-semitism] might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.”
It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.
If you can criticise the UK for human rights violations in Northern Ireland, then you can criticise Israel for human rights violations anywhere.
 

owedtojoy

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More antisemitism from Omar. A thoroughly odious hateful bitch.
What is anti-semitic about this?

D_sLUfoXkAIKU6L.jpg

Nothing she said falls within the IHRA definition of antisemitic speech.

I remember when Congressmen like Peter King would attack the British "occupation" of Northern Ireland. Were they accused of anti-British racism?
 

Clanrickard

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What is anti-semitic about this?

D_sLUfoXkAIKU6L.jpg

Nothing she said falls within the IHRA definition of antisemitic speech.

I remember when Congressmen like Peter King would attack the British "occupation" of Northern Ireland. Were they accused of anti-British racism?
She wants this passed so she can go gung ho towards her support for the BDS movement.
 

Dame_Enda

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What is anti-semitic about this?

D_sLUfoXkAIKU6L.jpg

Nothing she said falls within the IHRA definition of antisemitic speech.

I remember when Congressmen like Peter King would attack the British "occupation" of Northern Ireland. Were they accused of anti-British racism?
Correct but the problem with IHRA definition, which I oppose, is that it brings the State of Israel into the definition, which I think does a lot of damage to the fight against anti semitism by implying that Israel somehow represents the Jews, despite committing grave war crimes. I think its in part an attempt by Netanyahu to force the Jewish Diaspora to defend Israel based on a false equating of Israel with the Jews. It would be like forcing Marlene Dietrich to defend Nazi Germany or to force Helen Susman to defend the Botha regime in South Africa.
 

font

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More antisemitism from Omar. A thoroughly odious hateful bitch.
I hope that Israel will bar the f****en American antisemites, Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, from entering the country. (The visit is planned next month).
 

kalipa

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james toney

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More antisemitism from Omar. A thoroughly odious hateful bitch.
Feeling sorry for your racism,try not to be so anti semitic with such obvious racism.
Maybe it's beyond your comprehension on what you said...sadly you may enforce my point.
 

james toney

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I hope that Israel will bar the f****en American antisemites, Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, from entering the country. (The visit is planned next month).
They are not anti semites font/ochinlor....Maybe the Apartheid regime will deny them entry....so what....everybody can still see israels racism,fascism, from all over the world....and even from the moon.
Try not to be sore about israels racism....or maybe you are racist yourself och?
 

Dame_Enda

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A senior Democrat Congresswoman, Rosa DeLauro, who is married to pollster Stanley Greenberg, has retracted her sponsorship of Rep. Betty McCollum's bill (which may get 60 co-sponsors) which would ban arms sales to Israel unless it stops mistreatment of Palestinian children.

 

owedtojoy

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Correct but the problem with IHRA definition, which I oppose, is that it brings the State of Israel into the definition, which I think does a lot of damage to the fight against anti semitism by implying that Israel somehow represents the Jews, despite committing grave war crimes. I think its in part an attempt by Netanyahu to force the Jewish Diaspora to defend Israel based on a false equating of Israel with the Jews. It would be like forcing Marlene Dietrich to defend Nazi Germany or to force Helen Susman to defend the Botha regime in South Africa.
It does not being the State of Israel into the definition, which is as follows:

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

It cites Israel among the examples of where antisemitism occurs in speech, something which it wold be hard to avoid as Israel is a "Jewish community institution". Here are the examples where the State of Israel pops up in antisemitic speech:
  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
While the 2nd and 4th are a bit problematic imho, as a "working definition" that can be adapted and improved, to me it passes muster.

 

Dame_Enda

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But history has shown that there are some individuals (of all religions or ethnicities) that are loyal to foreign countries. We know this from history. Look at the Cambridge Spyring for example. Or William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw). Why should Jews be any different?

And I defend my right to compare Israeli policy to that of Nazi Germany before (I stress before) the Holocaust. Because if we can't compare the policies of seizing property and expulsion, and massacres and the ban on intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews being contracted inside Israel (reminds me of the Nuremberg laws), ,then that means waiting for a genocide to happen in silence. After Bosnia and Rwanda that just isn't on.

I have no problem with defining blood libel as antisemitic in a definition of antisemitism.

I don't dispute Israel's right to exist. But on balance I don't agree with including denial of the same as anti semitic because it is unfair to the minority of Jews who are anti Zionist and are not Jew haters. It's also very important that we not equate opposition to Israel's existence as a state with opposition to the right of Jews to exist (which obviously is a right they have).
 
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owedtojoy

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But history has shown that there are some individuals (of all religions or ethnicities) that are loyal to foreign countries. We know this from history. Look at the Cambridge Spyring for example. Or William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw). Why should Jews be any different?

And I defend my right to compare Israeli policy to that of Nazi Germany before (I stress before) the Holocaust. Because if we can't compare the policies of seizing property and expulsion, and massacres and the ban on intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews being contracted inside Israel (reminds me of the Nuremberg laws), ,then that means waiting for a genocide to happen in silence. After Bosnia and Rwanda that just isn't on.

I have no problem with defining blood libel as antisemitic in a definition of antisemitism.

I don't dispute Israel's right to exist. But on balance I don't agree with including denial of the same as anti semitic because it is unfair to the minority of Jews who are anti Zionist and are not Jew haters. It's also very important that we not equate opposition to Israel's existence as a state with opposition to the right of Jews to exist (which obviously is a right they have).
I don't disagree with much of what you say, but in an emotive minefield, there are nuances.

Individuals have indeed been loyal to foreign countries, but you cannot condemn a whole group because of the actions of the few. The "Irish race" (and the Poles) were accused of loyalty to the Pope before loyalty to the US. Was that not racist (or ethnicist) and bigoted e.g. it was said about Al Smith, the first Catholic to run for President, as a Democrat in 1928?

I agree about comparisons with the Nazi Nuremberg Laws or South African Apartheid, but that can tip over into racist taunting and baiting like "Hitler was a Zionist" (Ken Livingstone). And I think the "genocide" word is emotive. You can talk about ethnic cleansing, which is what is happening, overuse of the g-word just devalues it.

You can rhetorically complain about Israel's existence, but calls for its elimination have to be racist ... how could you destroy Israel without violence, and without destroying the people who would defend it to the death? Practically, Israel cannot be eliminated without violence - you can propose a one-state solution ok, but by peaceful means.
 

owedtojoy

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Pathetic servility of the House voting 398-17 with 22 abstentiins for a motion condemning BDS.

In 1848, Congressman Abraham Lincoln published a bill abolishing slavery (with compensation) in the District of Columbia. Incredibly, DC had its own busy slave markets.

Lincoln withdrew the bill because it had insufficient support in his own party. But 17 years later slavery was abolished.

This is a start.
 


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